AWA/US Air --integration plan

[Deadalus]

Couldn't resist

Just kidding, I'm not even an AWA captain

 

[Doug Parker]

Face it, this was a merger, not a buyout. The two CEO's used other peoples money to finance this venture.

A350

Follow the Money Trail - (hint: the $$ wasn't coming from the USAir side of the table)

By the way - WTF happened to the great USAir CEO Lakefield - That POS seems to have disappeared from the picture - Thank God !!

Another plus is that TWAA Beyotch isn't on our merger committee...............

Can't wait till 1st Qtr '07 !!!!

 

[PHXFLYR]

Good Heavens!! How did you get that out of what TWA Dude said.

I was kinda wondering that myself....


PHXFLYR

 

[aa73]

This is good discussion, but in the end the advantage you guys (AWA/US) have is that it will be decided by a neutral arbitrator. So if one group feels like they got screwed, they can blame Mr Arbitrator, and not the other pilot group.

IMHO, AA/TWA's biggest downfall was AA calling all the shots. It should have gone to arbitration. This is the only fair way when two groups cannot come to agreement.

Good luck AWA/US pilots. Don't do what we did.

 

[Hpilot]

This is good discussion, but in the end the advantage you guys (AWA/US) have is that it will be decided by a neutral arbitrator. So if one group feels like they got screwed, they can blame Mr Arbitrator, and not the other pilot group.

IMHO, AA/TWA's biggest downfall was AA calling all the shots. It should have gone to arbitration. This is the only fair way when two groups cannot come to agreement.

Good luck AWA/US pilots. Don't do what we did.

Thanks for the good wishes. We need it. I don't know how the US Airways guys are fairing, but it's not so good over here. Since the merger I've gone from almost holding a line, to holding long call reserve, to short call reserve. Argghhhh! I'm moving backwards. My career expectations are allready up in smoke and the integration isn't even finished. Oh well, at least the job itself is still enjoyable.

 

[Doug Parker]

Thanks for the good wishes. We need it. I don't know how the US Airways guys are fairing, but it's not so good over here. Since the merger I've gone from almost holding a line, to holding long call reserve, to short call reserve. Argghhhh! I'm moving backwards. My career expectations are allready up in smoke and the integration isn't even finished. Oh well, at least the job itself is still enjoyable.

That's what you get for flying a Boeing..................





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[FDJ2]

Merge the lists on a % basis: if you are in the top 10% of USAirways or AWA, you should be in the top 10% of the combined airline. On top of that, have fences around hubs - no USAirways guy can bid PHX and vice versa for X number of years. USAirways guys get the A330 while AWA guys get the Hawaii-bound 757s for X years... That seems fair to me...

Ahhh, the voice of reason. This will most likely be how it will work out, with the small caveat that no one on furlough will be senior to anyone actively flying.

 

[Filkster]

With DOH and ten year fences who gets screwed??? I do...in ten years. Just about all US Airways pilots, including the furloughs, are senior to the bottom third of our seniority list. DOH is not acceptable.

Just to stir the pot here..

How about 10 year fence, THEN integrate the lists??????

Any list integration that screws the furloughs is unreasonable and provides a windfall.

Also any integration that does not provide for the furloughs career progression in the next 10 years is a windfall.

How about we take both ENTIRE lists and integrate in some complicated screwed up totally unbelievable way that even an arbitrator can't make sense of. Then when EVERYONE is pi$$ed we may have something we can agree on.

Just stirrin things up.

RF

 

[TWA Dude]

How about 10 year fence, THEN integrate the lists??????

The Company would never buy that because it means running the pilot groups seperately, thus nullifying the desired "synergies" the merger was supposed to create.

 

[vetrider]

The Company would never buy that because it means running the pilot groups seperately, thus nullifying the desired "synergies" the merger was supposed to create.

A guy can dream, can't he. I'd go for a 22 year seperation myself.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

When you say "we" you mean our Merger Committee and when I say "we" I mean you and me. Our committees should be debating this stuff. I submit there's no point in us doing so on the internet.

Our negotiating committe represents us. We have the ability, and in my opinion, the obligation to let them know what we would like to see happen. Much like our government we have a responsibility to be involved. If you choose not to be involved you have no right to complain.

You seem to have this "sit back and see what happens" attitute. You have the right to do that. But don't sit there and tell me that I shouldn't have or share my opinions.

We do this on the internet because a. people have asked what our opinions are and b. that is the whole point of this forum...to exchange information i.e. flightinfo.com.

It pisses you and others off only because you're looking for things to be pissed off about.

Huh??? Whatever. You didn't really answer my question although we already knew the answer.

Of course. Once again you're talking about committees and I'm talking about internet message boards.

OK.

I can say the same about you. You sound like a hothead and not a negotiator.

And you sound like a thumb-sucking pacifist.

And likewise you missed my point. The whole idea of an arbitrator is to gain objectivity. You and I don't have it and neither does the

USA side. I'm not going tell the USA guys that relative seniority is fair because I know they'll disagree and I see no point in arguing.

Just where do you think he's going to gain that objectivity?

Not going to tell the USAir guys....well guess what? They're telling you DOH.

Look...it's simple. If you don't want to argue about it then don't reply to the people who do. Obviously you think there's a point in arguing about it or you wouldn't keep replying. You're saying "I don't want to argue about it but I think you’re wrong". Ooookay.

Sure. That's the Merger Committee's job, not mine or yours.

What ever. You just sit there.

Arguing on the internet will affect out careers? Not bloody likely.

Then why do you keep replying??? For someone who thinks this is the wrong place to argue you sure are doing it allot.

An authority, no, knowledgable, yes.

I question that as well.

And that's what makes this country great: freedom to think.

Or apparently a freedom to not think.

You've taken an adversial tone with me so I felt justified in responding in kind.

That's ok. I have a feeling you're pretty harmless.

Look. It's obvious we don't see eye to eye on this. We have each made or opinions clear and they are polar opposite. I'll just leave it at that. You can have the last word.

Peace out.

 

[TWA Dude]

Look. It's obvious we don't see eye to eye on this. We have each made or opinions clear and they are polar opposite.

You still don't understand what gets my goat about you. I've already been through this whole merger crap and know that blind rage and emotionalism gets you nowhere. Like everyone else I have my ideas about what a fair integration would look like but posting them for USAirways consumption only results in rage. I see no benefit to anyone. I don't stand in your way from doing so by being critical.

I am not passive. I don't tell our Merger Committee what I want them to do because they already know. If I disagree I'll talk to KH and make myself known. When the ALPA message board was shut down I talked to JR and told him it was a mistake when TWALPA did it and it's a mistake now. He told me he'd already gotten an earful about it from none other than KH. Why you interpret my distaste for telling USAirways pilots how I think they should be integrated as passivity is beyond me. You can shout here louder than me but that won't effect the outcome.

 

[Hpilot]

Cake and eat it too

Yeah, it's hard not to get worked up though when certain US Air pilots spout off about including the furloughs and then going date of hire. In the same breath they have the gall to talk about what's fair. I'd like a couple million bucks and a Lamborghini Muira, but I don't think I'm entitled to actually get it. Especially if I was on the verge of being on the street. But, then again a lot of people say look at the legal papers. AWA aquired USAir, USAir should get stapled. I'm sure that same kind of mentality ruffles feathers at USAir.

 

[vetrider]

You still don't understand what gets my goat about you. I've already been through this whole merger crap and know that blind rage and emotionalism gets you nowhere. Like everyone else I have my ideas about what a fair integration would look like but posting them for USAirways consumption only results in rage. I see no benefit to anyone. I don't stand in your way from doing so by being critical.

I am not passive. I don't tell our Merger Committee what I want them to do because they already know. If I disagree I'll talk to KH and make myself known. When the ALPA message board was shut down I talked to JR and told him it was a mistake when TWALPA did it and it's a mistake now. He told me he'd already gotten an earful about it from none other than KH. Why you interpret my distaste for telling USAirways pilots how I think they should be integrated as passivity is beyond me. You can shout here louder than me but that won't effect the outcome.

Apparantly the east doesn't give a rats a.. about inflaming us.

 

[Green]

You still don't understand what gets my goat about you. I've already been through this whole merger crap and know that blind rage and emotionalism gets you nowhere. Like everyone else I have my ideas about what a fair integration would look like but posting them for USAirways consumption only results in rage. I see no benefit to anyone. I don't stand in your way from doing so by being critical.

I am not passive. I don't tell our Merger Committee what I want them to do because they already know. If I disagree I'll talk to KH and make myself known. When the ALPA message board was shut down I talked to JR and told him it was a mistake when TWALPA did it and it's a mistake now. He told me he'd already gotten an earful about it from none other than KH. Why you interpret my distaste for telling USAirways pilots how I think they should be integrated as passivity is beyond me. You can shout here louder than me but that won't effect the outcome.

Here's our problem as AWA pilots. We are letting US Airways pilots "manage expectations." We are silent while they create all this buzz about DOH, protecting widebody flying, and the career progression of furloughees. We know that the progression of a furloughed pilot was jetblue or Home Depot and not the left seat of an A330 but our collective silence could be misconstrued as a silent acknowledgement. I'm sure the arbitrator would pick up on this.

IMHO we should not throw all our eggs in one basket by saying nothing and hoping our merger committee nails the hail mary with the arbitrator. We need to be very vocal as a pilot group that we will not back down one inch. Our silence just emboldens the Airways guys who are quickly forgetting where they were at just a year ago. Who needs this merger? We certainly don't and speeking as a junior AWA guy this merger has more negative potential than positive. We are the lifeline hear and we should absolutely not allow our pilot group to fall on its sword to help out the airways group.

 

[TWA Dude]

Yeah, it's hard not to get worked up though when certain US Air pilots spout off about including the furloughs and then going date of hire.

It doesn't bother me in the least because it's irrelevant. That's my whole point. Same applies for our side.

 

[TWA Dude]

Here's our problem as AWA pilots. We are letting US Airways pilots "manage expectations."

The negotiations haven't even begun yet. You think it really matters what a few spout off on message boards? I really don't. As for the arbitrator, a Merger Committee rep told me that he will look very unfavorably at outlandish demands from either side.

 

[Green]

Well I believe the negotiations did begin and they reached an impasse, where it was determined that mediation, probably followed by arbitration, would be required. That was the blast email we got stating that negotiations had stalled and further talks were cancelled due to the fact that the east side wanted doh as well as access to the hawaii flying among other things.....

I don't think it matters what is spouted off on message boards but I do think it matters if you have 3,000 unified voices all calling for DOH, furoughee career progression, widebody protection, etc while we remain silent on our side of the fence. They are a sophisticated pilot group that has been through this several times. Public opinion matters greatly and I would argue that no matter how unbiased this arbitrator is, he is going to be influenced by the "buzz" around this issue. I don't think our collective silence can help our cause.

 

[Andy]

Deja Vu all over again. My sympathies to U west. Sounds like some at U east are pulling a carbon copy of when UAL was going to buy them out. (DOH) I don't think that it's everyone at U east.
High fences are unlikely (2-3 yrs max), so neither side should plan on them.
I think that the only fair integration is relative seniority. That would mean that all of the east 330 capts would be at the top of the combined seniority list. From that point, I'd put the number one west 75 capt in front of the number one east 75/76 capt. Pick a few other key points (320/737 capt, 75 fo, 320/737 fo) and integrate based on ratios. All furloughees get stapled.
U west pilots would be smart to go to the arbitrator with that proposal, because a complete staple job wouldn't sit well with the arbitrator. A DOH integration also won't sit well with the arbitrator. And you can bet that the arbitrator will penalize the side that overreaches. I think that, in the eyes of the arbitrator, a publicity campaign means nothing. Just make sure that you go into arbitration with a good mouthpiece.

 

[Doug Parker]

Deja Vu all over again. My sympathies to U west. Sounds like some at U east are pulling a carbon copy of when UAL was going to buy them out. (DOH) I don't think that it's everyone at U east.
High fences are unlikely (2-3 yrs max), so neither side should plan on them.
I think that the only fair integration is relative seniority. That would mean that all of the east 330 capts would be at the top of the combined seniority list.

Hey Assmaster,

How in the merry motherfXXk is that relative senioirty ???????

Relative seniority would be somewhere along the lines of a 3 to 2 from the top down. But since those schmucks out east didn't have a leg to stand on - it should be 3 AWA to 2 AAA with the remainder STAPLED on the bottom.



.

 

[vetrider]

Well I believe the negotiations did begin and they reached an impasse, where it was determined that mediation, probably followed by arbitration, would be required. That was the blast email we got stating that negotiations had stalled and further talks were cancelled due to the fact that the east side wanted doh as well as access to the hawaii flying among other things.....

I don't think it matters what is spouted off on message boards but I do think it matters if you have 3,000 unified voices all calling for DOH, furoughee career progression, widebody protection, etc while we remain silent on our side of the fence. They are a sophisticated pilot group that has been through this several times. Public opinion matters greatly and I would argue that no matter how unbiased this arbitrator is, he is going to be influenced by the "buzz" around this issue. I don't think our collective silence can help our cause.

The real negotiations have not yet begun. The talks that were called off were just informal type discussions. The way I understand it, since east was hung up on doh we just decided that informal negotiations were fruitless and that we would call them off and wait until the lists were exchanged to begin the real negotiating.

 

[TWA Dude]

The two sides certainly met but no formal proposals were made since certified seniority lists have yet to be exchanged. Knowing how long it takes to book a arbitrator made them choose one now. A deal can still be reached, theoretically.

 

[Hvy]

Career expectations....

Some of us furloughed guys at US have better progression expectations than the guys at AWA. Simply by virtue of the large number of upcoming retirements. I believe ALPA merger policy is based on career expectation.

So...if East were to be left alone, I would retire at #2 on the seniority list flying an A330 for the last several years. Will this be what I get after the lists are merged? Doubtful.

USAir merged seniority lists with PSA.....it was DOH
USAir merged seniority lists with Piedmont.....it was DOH
US Airways merged seniority lists with US Airways Shuttle.....US Airways pilots wanted DOH....but Shuttle wouldn't go for that.

O.K., my side is still hurting....just what "career expectations" did you have as a furloughed US guy? Please explain as I'm easily confused. W/O America West acquiring you I doubt that there would be much "expections" for anyone, active or otherwise on your list.

 

[Andy]

Hey Assmaster,

How in the merry motherfXXk is that relative senioirty ???????

Relative seniority would be somewhere along the lines of a 3 to 2 from the top down. But since those schmucks out east didn't have a leg to stand on - it should be 3 AWA to 2 AAA with the remainder STAPLED on the bottom.
.

ROTFLMAO! Pal, when you keel over from the heart attack that you're setting yourself up for, there'll be one less number from west to integrate.

I can see that you have no concept of what the term 'relative' means in this context. Relative based on fleet and seat, Mr floppy shoes with the the curly orange hair and big red nose.

To lower the stress in your life, you need to get off of this board and go back to kicking the dog and beating the wife and kids. Oh, that's right, they left you (wonder why?) Make that beating the meat.
No matter how the integration turns out, you're going to be one miserable SOB for the rest of your career. This is going to tear out your insides.

 

[Filkster]

Apparantly the east doesn't give a rats a.. about inflaming us.

It's all negotiating tactics... Relax, you'll live longer with less stress...

RF

 

[Hvy]

When are the pilot groups going to get together to discuss this? I'm recommending that they remove all of the chairs from the room so that someone doesn't get hurt!

I still chuckle when I think back to the email I received from a US Air guy several years ago when he asked for my 747-400 manuals. Where is he now?

Probably the best solution is to try and piss off as many people as possible. The more people that are pissed off probably means that the talks were successful....

 

[TWA Dude]

When are the pilot groups going to get together to discuss this?

This summer.

 

[vetrider]

It's all negotiating tactics... Relax, you'll live longer with less stress...

RF

Thats good advice, i've already figured it out though, I was just making a statement, the way I see it.

 

[Doug Parker]

ROTFLMAO! Pal, when you keel over from the heart attack that you're setting yourself up for, there'll be one less number from west to integrate.

I can see that you have no concept of what the term 'relative' means in this context. Relative based on fleet and seat, Mr floppy shoes with the the curly orange hair and big red nose.

To lower the stress in your life, you need to get off of this board and go back to kicking the dog and beating the wife and kids. Oh, that's right, they left you (wonder why?) Make that beating the meat.
No matter how the integration turns out, you're going to be one miserable SOB for the rest of your career. This is going to tear out your insides.

Hey dork, enjoy retarTED if you ever get called back...........I'm just having fun

.

 

[Andy]

Hey dork, enjoy retarTED if you ever get called back...........I'm just having fun

.

Thanks, I will.
Your blood pressure has got to be approaching stroke level. I can only imagine what the phrase 'date of hire' does to you.
I can see that you and I have vastly different concepts of what we consider to be having fun.