Aviation Law 101

[some_dude]

If the crew in the original question was 135, then clearly the PIC was responsible no matter where in the aircraft he was.

If they were 91, it's murkier, since there is no legal requirement for more than two pilots. Generically, I'd say the PIC was still responsible.

How does your Ops Specs define the heavy crew and their duties and responsibilities?

Under 135, with a 3-man crew, each pilot can spend only 8 hours "on the flight deck." So the pilot who is off duty must be somewhere else, presumably in the crew rest area.

Also, IIRC, under 135 the crew must consist of 2 PICs and an SIC or 3 PICs. This stuff is all in the regulations, not in ops specs.

Since there are three captain qualified pilots, the pilot flying the left seat would be the person the FAA would assume to be responsible unless your operations manual specifies otherwise.JMHO

Not likely.

 

[avbug]

it means that any one of the three could act as PIC.

Again, not relevant, as only one may be acting as PIC. The qualification or potential to fill that position isn't relevant to the discussion.

he can't. there can only be one pic at any given time- the individual in the left seat is so designated. when the crew rotates seats enroute the pic designation shifts. so we would have three different pics on the same leg.

Again, not enough information is given. Is the flight being conducted under Part 91 privately as a corporate flight, Part 91K, or 135?

Unless it's conducted under 91K or 135, then what the company has to say about who is pilot in command doesn't make much difference. Who is acting as PIC? The mere act of sitting in the left seat does not make someone a pilot in command. If the three pilots agree among themselves to take on that responsibility and are qualified to do so, then so be it, but merely sitting in that seat doesn't make the person PIC, nor does holding a "captain" authorization do so either.

Again, if you're talking civil duty or liability, with respect to "legality," then all common sense goes out the window as just about anything is possible.

 

[semperfido]

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. Maybe for your operations this is true, but it's not universal.

i stand corrected. i meant for our ops. not universal.

Again, not enough information is given. Is the flight being conducted under Part 91 privately as a corporate flight, Part 91K, or 135?

Part 91. Let's narrow the discussion to from just a Regulatory point of view.

To summarize it depends on what it says in the individual operators Operations Manual. Is this correct?

 

[fokkerjet]

Whoevers name is listed on the flight plan as PIC will be the PIC in an incident / accident; just because you have a type rated pilot in the left seat doesn't make that person PIC, just the PF. In our ops manual, its stated that the "Captain" may be seated in the right seat but is still PIC even though not acting as the PF.

 

[semperfido]

Whoevers name is listed on the flight plan as PIC will be the PIC in an incident / accident;

......and if that pilot is in crew rest or not in the cockpit at the time?

 

[Spooky 1]

Simply put, duties remain with the seat. Command authority cannot be transfered to another pilot without a very structured procedure. I believe that NWA does this, or did it in the past. It would take a phone patch and another 10 minute process to complete the transfere.

 

[fokkerjet]

......and if that pilot is in crew rest or not in the cockpit at the time?

The Captain gets up to "take a leak", and while away from his station, the F/O is issued a descent clearance. For some reason the new altitude is "busted", is the Captain responsible?

I'm not sure of the answer to this, but American Airlines used to fly with an International F/O on legs requiring a 3rd pilot. When the Captain was in "crew rest", who's PIC now? One of the F/O's, or the Captain sitting in the cabin? I'd venture to guess the Captain in the cabin is still PIC.

 

[G4G5]

Whoevers name is listed on the flight plan as PIC will be the PIC in an incident / accident; just because you have a type rated pilot in the left seat doesn't make that person PIC, just the PF. In our ops manual, its stated that the "Captain" may be seated in the right seat but is still PIC even though not acting as the PF.

This is the way I understand the law to be.

In your hypothetical case, it would be up the the PIC to prove to the FAA (if you are lucky enough to have this happen in the US) that he was not in control of the aircraft. At AA we had two relief pilots (both FO's) get lost on a crossing. By the time the captain came back from his rest break the FO's had discovered their errors and corrected the situtation. They never told the CA about the GNE. The next thing the CA gets is a letter asking to explain what happened. No one cared that two FO's were flying the aircraft.

Bottom line the union was able to get him off the hook but they were only able to do so because he was not in the cockpit at the time of the GNE.

In your case the "Captain" in on the jump seat. So, he is in the cockpit, he is responsible. Getting back to what Foker said, if your name is on the flight plan your name will be on the letter from the feds. Either that or sit in the rest/bunk room for landing.

 

[fokkerjet]

Bottom line the union was able to get him off the hook but they were only able to do so because he was not in the cockpit at the time of the GNE.

Could it have been because the Captain was "off duty" at the time and not just out of the cockpit? Required crew rest by regulations?

 

[Spooky 1]

I can assure from some first hand experience and knowledge that if the PIC sat in the back, or was in the crew rest for landing he/she would probably be terminated, much less violated at a US carrier. In addition, up until just recently on the B777 OHCR, these areas are not approved for T.O., and landing occupancy.

I would agree completely that if the PIC/Capt. was in the crew rest/head/pax seat and the operating crew members did something to cause an incident, there would obviously be mitigating circumsatnces surounding the PIC/Capt. responsibilities as associated with that event. His name would still be on the letter from the FAA though. As for being "off duty". I don't think so. You are on duty, but resting so word smithing your excuse probably will not work.