Avantair Union

[Newkem]

Pilots, as a group, are NOT white collar professionals. But we THINK we are.

We are as blue collar as any plumber or truck driver. The spelling, syntax and grammar on this board bear stark witness to that fact.

And have you seen how pilots tend to dress?

Jusssssss sayin'

Oh how droll. Gauche.

 

[gunfyter]

I'm sure there are exceptions that are out there, but other than pilots, what "profession" has unionized to where it matters?

Doctors ... its called the AMA ....

 

[X-rated]

So the race for the bottom is inevitable then?

We should just recognize that when an employer makes more demands on us for ever less, that this is just the natural order of things and we should realize how blessed we are to be able to participate in creating profits for our betters...Right?

On the other hand, while X's thinking here may look compelling on the surface due to its seemingly simplicity, the reality out there is much more complex...

Especially in private aviation, things are not just about saving a buck...if it were, this whole sector of aviation would not exist in the first place, because it can never compete against regular airlines' first class on pure economics alone.

The actual allure of private is mostly about prestige and projecting an image of success, convenience and one-up-man-ship. In that environment, the perception of overall value is what wins the day and that is determined by more than just direct out of pocket costs.

A large part of that perceived value is determined by being able to make the claim of having the most safe and experienced pilots in the business. The more experience you can demonstrate, the easier it is to sell a new customer and keep the old one. Experienced pilots in turn look for money, quality of life, and stability the longer they fly professionally and it's undeniable that by organizing yourself into a professional group, you can create these kinds of conditions much more sustainably over time than by going it alone.

Unions can be good for business because they provide stability and predictability. Intelligent management usually recognizes this sooner or later and ultimately makes accommodations so as to take advantage of what a unionized workplace can offer. So again, we arrive at the old truism of it's all up to management when it comes to how their unionized labor force affects their business.

Secondly, it's all up to us in how successful a Union will ultimately be. Without unity of purpose we remain powerless.

I really don't see where you get "race to the bottom" from anything I said. I just said, irrespective of the perceived wealth of your clientele, your cost structure cannot get too far out of line with the existing market. Don't fool yourself, no one, including very wealthy people, will pay significantly above market rates for an equal product. Also, higher wages, increased benefits, and better working conditions will attract more workers, which as gret pointed out, will put downward pressure on compensation. The reverse is also true. If enough pilots decide this industry is no longer worth it and decide to do something else, it will create a pilot shortage and wages will rise. And then the cycle will begin again. It's actually a pretty good system.

 

[gret]

Doctors ... its called the AMA ....

Interesting...I don't think they act as a union, but they have been accused of being a guild. Honestly, I didn't know everything they did until I just looked it up. Pilots can learn from them as they have been accused of limiting the number of doctors that can enter the profession.

I thought the AMA was more like the bar association (lawyers that is) or the state societies of CPA's.

 

[gunfyter]

100 Years of Medical Robbery
Mises Daily: Thursday, June 10, 2004 by Dale Steinreich

http://mises.org/daily/1547


The public policy blog of the American Enterprise Institute

American Medical Association: the strongest trade union in the U.S.A.
Mark J. Perry | July 5, 2012, 2:46 pm

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/07/am...ation-the-strongest-trade-union-in-the-u-s-a/

 

[gret]

100 Years of Medical Robbery
Mises Daily: Thursday, June 10, 2004 by Dale Steinreich

http://mises.org/daily/1547


The public policy blog of the American Enterprise Institute

American Medical Association: the strongest trade union in the U.S.A.
Mark J. Perry | July 5, 2012, 2:46 pm

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/07/am...ation-the-strongest-trade-union-in-the-u-s-a/

Tremendous power because they can limit the number of new doctors.

They don't have a say regarding work hours, job duties, QOL, or anything else...but...compensation by keeping the number of qualified workers low.

Pretty good gig if you can get it.

 

[gunfyter]

Further:

(Milton Friedman)in his classic 1962 book Capitalism and Freedom, Dr. Friedman describes the American Medical Association (AMA) as the “strongest trade union in the United States” and documents the ways in which the AMA vigorously restricts competition. For example, the “Council on Medical Education and Hospitals” of the AMA approves both medical schools and hospitals. By restricting the number of approved medical schools and the number of applicants to those schools, the AMA effectively limits the supply of physicians, which increases their wages, and raises the overall cost of medical care.

also in 1999 the AMA was working to unionize doctors to fight low compensation of insurance companies....

 

[brokeflyer]

thats what we need. limit the number of ATP's that are given out.

problem is, airlines would pay congress to issue one to everyone to keep the salary low.

management would gladly pay 100 million to fight pilots who are only asking 10 million. Amazing they can get a college degree being that stupid.

 

[X-rated]

100 Years of Medical Robbery
Mises Daily: Thursday, June 10, 2004 by Dale Steinreich

http://mises.org/daily/1547


The public policy blog of the American Enterprise Institute

American Medical Association: the strongest trade union in the U.S.A.
Mark J. Perry | July 5, 2012, 2:46 pm

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/07/am...ation-the-strongest-trade-union-in-the-u-s-a/

Very interesting articles and a connection I had never made. However, the $153,000 median salary for primary-care physicians honestly doesn't seem very high considering the ferocious competition, years of training and capital invested to become a physician. Most major airline captains and Long Range private jet captains far eclipse that mark. It certainly provides another perspective to all the race to the bottom rhetoric. We all think we're worth 250K per year due to our skill and training. The fact is, most people could do our jobs with a year or two of training. The average guy on this board could never become a doctor.


"Restricting labor supply has markedly boosted incomes. Median yearly salaries for primary-care physicians are $153,000, for specialists $275,000."

 

[G4dude]

thats what we need. limit the number of ATP's that are given out.

problem is, airlines would pay congress to issue one to everyone to keep the salary low.

management would gladly pay 100 million to fight pilots who are only asking 10 million. Amazing they can get a college degree being that stupid.

I think we are overpaid in many cases, except for the fact that we have to pass a physical every 6 months. Let the marketplace decide how many pilots there are and how much they get paid. How can anybody advocate, by the way, restricting the number of pilots who can realize their dream of becoming aviators just so the rest of us can make more money? Gad! I say that with all due respect, Brokeflyer.