Avantair thriving in this economic downturn...

[C425Driver]

BD,

Agreed. Like I said, salaries aren't the only factor, but they are a contributor. I don't think we're doing a whole lot of buy backs as our sales team is reporting record sales. Most of our sales are charter cards and Axis membership but we are still selling and growing. A couple of passengers told me that they bought charter cards and will use those until they receive their buyout from their previous frac. At that time they intend to buy a fractional share from us.

If I recall correctly, last quarter we posted a 1.8M profit - not much in the big scheme of things but it's progress in the right direction. Now, if we increase our pilot salaries by 30% to bring them closer to someone's idea of industry norm, then you are talking about increasing our pilot payroll by over 4M. You don't have to be a math major to figure out that the salary increase would cost Avantair too much. Also, if the pilots get a raise the rest of the employees are going to want a raise as well (and rightfully so) whch would be even more devestating to our bottom line. At Avantair in our current situation, salaries can have a significant affect on the bottom line.

 

[fischman]

Some people have come on here and bashed what our COO makes. In my opinion, he earned it. When his predecessor was shown the door, KB had a lot of work to do - or I should say he had a lot of work to undo. The wasteful spending by the previos COO was costing us dearly. KB came in and reviewed all of the contracts that she had signed with vendors and renegotiated or cancelled almost all of them. This is a project that's still going on over a year later and it's a major contributor in taking us out of the red and into the black. He didn't do that on the backs of the pilots or any other employee group - he did it on good business sense.

"Be careful what you ask for."

 

[BeeDubya]

BD,

Agreed. Like I said, salaries aren't the only factor, but they are a contributor. I don't think we're doing a whole lot of buy backs as our sales team is reporting record sales. Most of our sales are charter cards and Axis membership but we are still selling and growing.

First, it's BW... for Brian Ward... However, my middle initial is D... so I'm okay with BD.

Second, I was referring to your post that salaries were "contributing" to the layoffs and NJ's Voluntary Measures -- that high salaries were why the companies were taking the actions each took. My point was that if you look at what is occurring at each of the jet fractionals, salaries, (no matter high or low) are negligible when compared to the other factors -- specifically, increased inventory. In other words, I was talking about the fractionals that had laid off or were facing potential layoffs.

Now, whether higher salaries have a negative effect on Avantair's profits, that depends. If nothing else changed, then yes, it would. If productivity increased or fees were adjusted accordingly, then it may have no negative effect (also dependant on sales patterns). Certainly it's good to be profitable, but other questions should also be asked, what is the company doing with the profits? Is it growing the business? What kind of benefits and bonuses are going to other employees and employee groups?

 

[harley30344]

The company is making money. The people working there seem to be happy. Why are certain people on this forum trying to make them feel guilty or bad about their wages and compensation? If the employees don't want a union then leave them alone. This is exactly what I've spoken about on other forums. NJW, you continuously push the pro-union agenda--have you EVER considered that just maybe that isn't always the answer? If a union works for you great, but don't try to make others feel badly because they don't want to follow your path.

Go ahead flamers--I know someone will take a personal shot simply because I disagree with their philosophy.

 

[C425Driver]

The BD was a shortened reference to BeeDubya, that's all.

I agree with the statements that you are making. My point was countering someone else's view that we should be increasing our salaries to match others in the industry on some principle. If we did that we would be in the red. I'm all for making as much money as I can, but not when it's going to put us back in the red.

And while I agree that there are more significant factors than salaries for other company's layoffs and salaries aren't the only "why" layoffs/early outs were necessary, salary is a contributor - not the one and only reason. I think that dead horse is beaten enough, no?

 

[HazMat]

By your fifth year you are a captain at Avantair and most likely it would occur much sooner than that. So if we are comparing 5 year salaries we are making more since you are still an FO at Netjets. I would imagine the upgrades to captain are going to be way out at the other fractionals we are looking at two years. Can we stop the argument now. Most importantly we are not down sizing and losing our jobs. Something you all refuse to comment on.

 

[netjetwife]

Harley, this is a fair pay issue, not a Union issue as NJI and CS--both non-union--have set their pay at the top of the scale. I have already stated that a Union is not always required for employees to receive the going rate. The point is that there is a big discrepancy in the frac industry that cannot be justified when you look at the job description.

I am fully aware that some pilotgroups have formed Councils to represent their interests in discussions with managers. In the matter of pay, at some fracs that is enough. Clearly it works for the Shares pilots; when NJA pilots got a raise so did they--both times. Thus, when I advocate pilots standing up for themselves to achieve industry standard pay, I am including those who use a Council form of representation. I have posted as such in the past, but some who missed those threads often make the false assumption that I believe a Union is required for fair pay. Those posters, yourself included, are the ones trying to turn a pay discussion into a union vs non-union issue--not me...

 

[netjetwife]

By your fifth year you are a captain at Avantair and most likely it would occur much sooner than that. So if we are comparing 5 year salaries (In the interest of being informed participants, I'd like to see us compare them at all levels.) we are making more since you are still an FO at Netjets. That is something that should be looked at by the NJ pilots. I would imagine the upgrades to captain are going to be way out at the other fractionals we are looking at two years. Can we stop the argument now. Most importantly we are not down sizing and losing our jobs. Something you all refuse to comment on.

I don't see this as an argument and I'm sorry that you do. I view this exchange as helpful information-sharing. As for commenting on the fact that Avantair is not downsizing, I have already done so-- in the beginning of the thread when I congratulated your group on its growth. I see it as bittersweet. While it gives me hope that things aren't as grim for the industry as I had previously thought, it does concern me that the lower payscale at Avantair is a possible factor in their ability to draw new owners from the other fracs. To me, the silver lining in the economic cloud hanging over us would be hearing that Avantair pilots had gotten a raise. I'm disappointed that's not the case--yet. Your future appears promising so congrats on that.

Guys, I do get it that you see yourselves as making an investment in your careers there. I realize that you are proud of Avantair and see yourselves as helping to build the company. Kudos to you all for your hard work and loyalty. I sincerely hope that it all works out because you and your families deserve it to. Unfortunately, it doesn't always go that way--thus my concern. Life is full of gray areas and there can be a fine line between investing in the future and subsidizing a company that uses lower labor costs to grab market share. For the sake of Avantair employees/families, and the rest of the frac families, hopefully the growth and rising profits there will result in increased wages (for those not currently making the going rate) and we will all find that your investment and loyalty has been reciprocated. I will be thrilled if my worry turns out to be for naught. Wishing the best for all frac families in these uncertain times, NJW

 

[glasspilot]

For the sake of Avantair employees/families, and the rest of the frac families, hopefully the growth and rising profits there will result in increased wages (for those not currently making the going rate) and we will all find that your investment and loyalty has been reciprocated. I will be thrilled if my worry turns out to be for naught. Wishing the best for all frac families in these uncertain times, NJW

What is the "going rate" for a pilot NetJetWife? I'm serious...please, do tell.

It occurs to me that you make half of what your husband makes. I know other wives that sit around and post on the internet all day that make much less. Perhaps the wives of America should band together and start a union. You all do the same work, shouldn't you all share the same rewards? Maybe, as you suggest, my friends wife is undercutting my wife in order to gain market share.

 

[brokeflyer]

hey njw.....with all respect.

maybe it's time to just leave this one alone. Let's concentrate on other things.

these guys are all grown up and can make up their own minds.

 

[C425Driver]

I don't see this as an argument and I'm sorry that you do. I view this exchange as helpful information-sharing. I didn't realize that we need to share anything with you. As for commenting on the fact that Avantair is not downsizing, I have already done so-- in the beginning of the thread when I congratulated your group on its growth. I see it as bittersweet. While it gives me hope that things aren't as grim for the industry as I had previously thought, it does concern me that the lower payscale at Avantair is a possible factor in their ability to draw new owners from the other fracs. To me, the silver lining in the economic cloud hanging over us would be hearing that Avantair pilots had gotten a raise. The silver lining to those of us who actually work for Avantair is we turned a profit for the first time in the history of our company during these economic times. I'm disappointed that's not the case--yet. Hey everyone, did you hear that? NJW is disappointed in us. Your future appears promising so congrats on that. At least we agree on something.

Guys, I do get it that you see yourselves as making an investment in your careers there. No you don't. If you did you wouldn't be harassing us about our salaries. I'm sure you'll say you do but your rhetoric doesn't support it. In the few times that I've heard you mentioned in conversation by our pilots they agreed that they're sick of hearing it from you. I realize that you are proud of Avantair and see yourselves as helping to build the company. But you fail to recognize that no company has started out with industry leading wages straight out of the gates and made it. Costs must be kept low in the beginning. Two fine examples of this are NJA and SWA. Both companies didn't pay much in the beginning but after they firmly established themselves the pilots got higher wages. Kudos to you all for your hard work and loyalty. That means little coming from you. I sincerely hope that it all works out because you and your families deserve it to. Unfortunately, it doesn't always go that way--thus my concern. So what are you proposing here? If you actually do get your w-- dream and we get paid the same as NJA starting next week, we will be right back in the red and undo everything that we've worked for and possibly go out of business. Then what will we have? Life is full of gray areas and there can be a fine line between investing in the future and subsidizing a company that uses lower labor costs to grab market share. I'm sure you have a detailed solution for how we are going to negotiate that fine line. I mean, you do have something more to offer than, "you need more money" right? For the sake of Avantair employees/families, and the rest of the frac families, hopefully the growth and rising profits there will result in increased wages (for those not currently making the going rate) and we will all find that your investment and loyalty has been reciprocated. I hope so to, but you need to be realistic about a time line and you are not. I will be thrilled if my worry turns out to be for naught. We are doing our best to improve the company every day. It's for us to worry about - not you. Wishing the best for all frac families in these uncertain times, NJW

You seem to have no problem getting on here and telling us that we need to demand higher wages, but you have never offered a solution that will keep us on the road to sustained profitability and not hurt our company's bottom line. So here's your chance. Tell us exactly how to get those higher wages without hurting our company. After all you know everything there is to know about the fractional industry so you must have all the answers.

 

[netjetwife]

What is the "going rate" for a pilot NetJetWife? I'm serious...please, do tell....

The average of what the majority in your industry are being paid for performing the same/similar duties with like responsibilities.

 

[jonjuan]

You seem to have no problem getting on here and telling us that we need to demand higher wages, but you have never offered a solution that will keep us on the road to sustained profitability and not hurt our company's bottom line. So here's your chance. Tell us exactly how to get those higher wages without hurting our company. After all you know everything there is to know about the fractional industry so you must have all the answers.

Spot on. She's not as concerned about your pay as much as she's worried (as she should be) about owners leaving her husbands company for elsewhere where hourly costs are a fraction (that's a pun) of what they are at nj. Like WN during its growth period, much of their cost control measures led to stability and a long term paycheck their families can count on. They were looked down upon by all of the legacy carriers (AA, DAL, UAL) with massive cost structures because they udercut on price and didn't "fairly compete." It was years before they reached the "going rate." Similar story at jetblue and airtran.

 

[jonjuan]

The average of what the majority in your industry are being paid for performing the same/similar duties with like responsibilities.

Does this include charter companies? If not, why?

 

[glasspilot]

So what's the number? How much per year is "going rate" for a PIC / FO?

Does Avantair get to compare our 5yr PIC / FO pay against NetJets 5yr PIC / FO at NetJets 6 year mark?

Or are we just going to look at the big guys at current rate and then compare an upstart and cry foul? As several posters alluded to above, pilot pay is not the major reason for loses at the big 4. Airplanes sitting around are. If that's the case then pilot pay is not the major reason for Avantair doing well either, airplanes NOT sitting around is.

We get to grow too, just like the big 4. Stop demanding that we be you RIGHT THIS MINUTE. It's not fair to expect us to do what nobody else could.

 

[netjetwife]

JJ, my concern for NJ folks doesn't preclude me from being concerned for others in the industry and please note that I've been open about my worry of how one group's wages may affect another's--an awkward topic, to be sure. Concerning charter pay: A committee of NJ pilots (including my husband) researched various sources of business aviation salaries for their negotiating committee's payscale proposal. I don't remember if charters were specifically included in that list, or not. I will ask if you're interested. BTW, do you think charter pilots consider themselves to be frac pilots? And vice versa?

C425, I'm only advocating that pilots speak up and seek credit for their contribution; how they interact with their management depends on the relationship they have. Obviously, each group can go it alone, but there is the viewpoint that more is to be gained from working together and I agree with that perspective. Please don't falsely claim that I'm disappointed in Avantair pilots. I have great respect for pilots, in general, and think frac pilots, particularly, work very hard. I'm disappointed that your company is growing but your wages aren't--yet. I'm frustrated that this industry (actually, aviation in general) is quick to recognize upper management/executives with generous salaries, bonuses, stock options, etc but much slower to reward (in some cases even respect) pilots who are the front-line employees charged with customer service and safety.

I object to the term "harassing" that is not my intention, nor my attitude. About your examples: SWA has a history of respecting employees and paying fairly. Unfortunately, NJA was slow to catch on and many broken promises preceded the current contract. Many NJA pilots will tell you that they waited too long to speak up. I'm not proposing instant and exact NJ payscales, but I do firmly believe that Avantair pilots, along with their peers deserve to be in the same ballpark. Detailed solutions are the purvey of those directly involved, chosen to represent their group in whatever capacity the majority deems best. As we all know, I'm part of the support structure. I'm a cheerleader according to some here...

I do concede that my knowledge of the NJA pilots struggle for professional compensation affects my outlook and makes it harder for me to have faith in the IOU system. What is a realistic time line for wage increases at Avantair? How many quarters of posting profits does your group see as a fair time to wait? I ask questions because I think we can all learn something from each other. I do recognize the concept of working collectively for a common goal; I just tend to take a broader view and look for improvements for frac families industry wide. NJW

 

[HazMat]

Njw you have bigger things to be concerned about. It is easy when your husband is a union official and his job is not on the line. I would focus on netjets and leave AvantAir to us

 

[wacoflyr]

Exactly. NJW, who are you to mess with my job? Because that is exactly what you are doing, and with remarkably little information. For instance, the FO wages that were published were inaccurate. You couldn't know that, but that is exactly my point. How do you know what promises we have? How could you know about our profit sharing program? How could you know how effective our PAC (that's pilot action committee) is? You don't know what we are trying to build here, because you don't work here. I have read many of your posts with respect for your civility. I believe you mean well. But I think you do not understand the damage that poorly considered words may cause. I am surprised by this, because like the rest of us you have had to tolerate trolls such as B19. I would think you would have learned from his mistakes. Your arguments on this very public forum might cause discontent in my company. I doubt that it will, as we are a fairly unified group, but it might. Therefore I wish you would stop, for the sake of my company. If you must post, stick to the facts as you know them, not the surmises that you may have as a result of being married to someone who works at another fractional. My job is too important to me to just sit by and watch you carelessly meddle with it.

Regards, Wacoflyr

 

[netjetwife]

So what's the number? How much per year is "going rate" for a PIC / FO? We need a CS pilot to post the payscale at Shares if you want the exact number because the average of CS and NJ pay represents the majority, aka "going rate". Getting the input of Flt Ops pilots would be relevant as they're discussing the topic in detail right now.

Does Avantair get to compare our 5yr PIC / FO pay against NetJets 5yr PIC / FO at NetJets 6 year mark? Not 5 yr to 5 yr? I've already said that I agree that long upgrade times at NJ pose a problem that I think should be looked at, especially if it means that NJ FOs could fall behind pilots with the same years of service elsewhere. I think overall fairness is what matters so I'd look at a number of variables in comparing and take responsibilities into account, too.

Or are we just going to look at the big guys at current rate and then compare an upstart and cry foul? This viewpoint always surprises me. Maybe I lack the rivalry so many here seem to have, but I've always seen it as logical and helpful to have the biggest groups set the standard, providing it's at a professional level. I'm confident that the Flt Ops negotiators are pointing at the "big guys" pay and not those who are being underpaid like they are. The goal is to raise the bar for everyone, isn't it? I thought frac pilots were tired of the race to the bottom. As several posters alluded to above, pilot pay is not the major reason for loses at the big 4. Airplanes sitting around are. Agreed. If that's the case then pilot pay is not the major reason for Avantair doing well either, airplanes NOT sitting around is. I didn't say it was a major reason; just that it is reflected in the final product price which is a consideration of your new owners, especially in today's economy. To what degree it is a factor is something for economists to decipher. My focus is on frac families and their QOL.

We get to grow too, just like the big 4. Stop demanding that we be you RIGHT THIS MINUTE. It's not fair to expect us to do what nobody else could.

Again, I protest the attitude unfairly being assigned to me. I fully understand that now is a bad time for many pilots who are worried about keeping a job--or worse, finding one--but I thought/hoped a time of growth would offer an opportunity to you guys, at least. I try to look at frac issues from all sides, thus, I do agree that not having to furlough at Avantair would definitely look like a silver cloud to you guys. It's shiny enough for you... but that doesn't stop others from being worried.

The fear of one company undercutting another is a valid concern because it does happen-- frequently. I hate the thought of pilots' wages potentially being a part of that; if they were closer that wouldn't be an issue. I think we'd all prefer that, wouldn't we? There seems to be a spirit of camaraderie among the frac community that made me hopeful we could discuss the situation as a group. I've always supported the goal of establishing a fair industry standard that gives all of our families the professional income they deserve--regardless of where the pilots fly. I believed in industry standards when the economy was strong based on fairness. Now that we're dealing with a recession and flying is down (for most of the industry) I also see a level playing field as a necessity so that wages don't become (in any noticeable degree) a part of the ugly side of competition. Even if it takes longer to get there, I think it's a worthy goal. NJW

 

[AftCG182]

NJW, in the past I've read your posts with great respect, because you're keeping an eye on things for the sake of the family. It's no secret... I show up for work every week for one reason- my daughter, and thus my respect for your posts. Thank you.

But, I've gotta tell you that the posts in this thread reflect a person whose interests are self-serving. I think that you're feeling a bit threatened by our modest/sustainable wages, because maybe, just maybe they might have a negative effect on your bottom line (and your family's security as a natural by-product).

Let me assure you that our pay scale is not going to affect your bottom line/level of security for your family. Your union is much too strong to let that happen.

Please, don't feel threatened. Just let us work our way to sustainability and profitability. Stirring the pot over here isn't going to help anyone.

Thanks...