Avantair Monkey Radio

[se1776]

I guess I am trying to understand what the big deal is here. Not trying to flame.

If the Avantair FOs fly all of the empty legs or repositioning flights, wouldn't that still add up to maybe a leg or two per day? Sure, that's not ideal because you would want the flexibility to fly the aircraft when you want but still not too bad considering you are training on the aircraft - somebody has to man the radios... If upgrade time is running at 1-2 years, you wouldn't have to wait too long to fly the majority of the flights - right? I guess as long as I would be flying most of the empty legs or repositioning flights I personally would be OK with it so long as the upgrade time was not too long (I could compensate with more than enough legs when I upgrade to PIC).

I guess I am surprised that many FOs would be so upset as to consider quitting in the near term given the relatively quick upgrade time... What is the ugrade time running nowadays?

for example my friend was the monkey radio for 9.0 hrs yesterday and and out of those hrs he was only allowed to fly .5 tell me is thats a lot of BULL

 

[johnsonrod]

for example my friend was the monkey radio for 9.0 hrs yesterday and and out of those hrs he was only allowed to fly .5 tell me is thats a lot of BULL

Yeah, that sucks. Well, let's hope that management listens to "reason" for once. If enough people leave then management will have to listen I would guess...

I really don't understand why FOs wouldn't be able to fly an empty aircraft into a "metro" area like ATL or LAX. That's ridiculous if that's true... Can someone explain the lawyers' rationale for that one? What have the lawyers or management team members said about that?

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

......

If I was in that small cockpit for nine hours a day, and got to fly for .5, I'd need one of these.:uzi:

 

[x402]

for example my friend was the monkey radio for 9.0 hrs yesterday and and out of those hrs he was only allowed to fly .5 tell me is thats a lot of BULL

Can we find a quicker way to tire a crew?
It's a stupid idea with little or no basis in Human Factors. Can the management at Advil Air really be that reactionary? I thought only NJA wrote SOP's while the ink was drying on the NTSB report.
2 man cockpit, 2 man responsibilities. Any PIC pointing at his FO, needs to return a stripe.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Guess I can scratch communist Avantair off my list of places I might like to work.
What do they consider a "metro" area anyways? Who defines it and how?

 

[se1776]

there some F/O more experienced then captains, in avantair.
and you telling me they cant fly. an a airplane only weight 11,500 pounds.
how stupid is that company.....dont go there pilots there more bether places outthere then that.

 

[G100driver]

So lemme get this straight, an F/O was at the controls when an airplane geared up and now F/O's cannot fly? Perhaps the policy should say that captains are not allowed to moniter the PF as they might forget to confirm that the gear is down.

 

[Dilligaff]

G100, you got it wrong. The gear was down and locked. Allegedly it collapsed as a result of pilot technique - investigation is still under way. Also, FO's are allowed to fly, just under certain circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the lawyers' decision to restrict FO's flying. Actually, I think it's a worthless knee-jerk reaction.

 

[G100driver]

Thanks for setting the record straight. An early post lead me to believe the airplane was geared up.

Good luck there.

 

[CherryBomb]

I agree with Dilligaf, I think it is a very poor reaction on the lawyers part. However, I can see the reasoning in their panic type move.

Avantair is a one crash company. One airplane goes down and the company is done, period. The Avanti is such an odd looking, high profile airplane, it would be very easy to give it a bad reputation. I just doesnt blend in among the citations, lears, etc...

I have faith that management will work this stuff out. The incident couldnt have come at a worse time being that the company just went public.

Overall it was a slap in the face to me and my fellow pilots, but I sort of understand the "panic" on the part of the lawyers. Like I said, I have faith that management will work things out. However thats not to say I wont keep my resume updated...

 

[Diesel]

I think its funny how the DO is hiding behind the "lawyer told me to." if he had a set he would have thrown the lawyer out. Thats if the lawyer even made the rule which i highly doubt he did.

All the other companies in the world that have crashes don't all of a sudden say no FO's can't fly.

 

[se1776]

I think its funny how the DO is hiding behind the "lawyer told me to." if he had a set he would have thrown the lawyer out. Thats if the lawyer even made the rule which i highly doubt he did.

All the other companies in the world that have crashes don't all of a sudden say no FO's can't fly.

that's the easy way out to blame the co'pilot

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

I think its funny how the DO is hiding behind the "lawyer told me to." if he had a set he would have thrown the lawyer out. Thats if the lawyer even made the rule which i highly doubt he did.

All the other companies in the world that have crashes don't all of a sudden say no FO's can't fly.

D.O.? That place doesn't have a DO- only someone posing as a DO. He's done nothing but kiss ass since way back when he was an FO. Any DO with ANY balls whatsoever, or who calls himself a pilot, would have thrown down over this, and walked out if he had to.

 

[P180puke]

Guys, it's more simple than "the lawyer said" and "the D.O. has no nuts" (which he doesn't).

That airplane was used extensively as a trainer as well as a parts whore. Anybody at avantair with some history can attest as they witnessed it sitting in the hanger for months on end in various displays of disarray and sweated through their initial and recurrents in it.

The crew swears (CVR should back it up) that the landing was normal-not hard. Assume for now it was.

Bag the crew (FO because he was flying) and redirect the focus from possible mx issues to that of the all-encompassing "pilot error" and the whole thing goes away. Strike preemptively by instituting ridiculous rules for FOs flying the line and jump start the focus.

Who's to say this wasn't the subject of a compilation of hard landings (training, etc.) that decided to finally evolve while this crew was flying?

Probably can't prove it, but it's a much better option for management to hang the crew out to dry than endure the scrutiny of a mx deficiency and subsequent investigation.

Or maybe they just landed hard. REAL hard.

 

[CherryBomb]

Guys, it's more simple than "the lawyer said" and "the D.O. has no nuts" (which he doesn't).

That airplane was used extensively as a trainer as well as a parts whore. Anybody at avantair with some history can attest as they witnessed it sitting in the hanger for months on end in various displays of disarray and sweated through their initial and recurrents in it.

The crew swears (CVR should back it up) that the landing was normal-not hard. Assume for now it was.

Bag the crew (FO because he was flying) and redirect the focus from possible mx issues to that of the all-encompassing "pilot error" and the whole thing goes away. Strike preemptively by instituting ridiculous rules for FOs flying the line and jump start the focus.

Who's to say this wasn't the subject of a compilation of hard landings (training, etc.) that decided to finally evolve while this crew was flying?

Probably can't prove it, but it's a much better option for management to hang the crew out to dry than endure the scrutiny of a mx deficiency and subsequent investigation.

Or maybe they just landed hard. REAL hard.

That was a very insightful post... Well said
CB

 

[Noodles]

When I worked for Avantair, it was policy that they prefered the FO's not fly legs with passengers, but it was Captains discretion. Knowing the management, I'm sure they've already determined the crew was at fault, no matter what actually happened. Everything is the crew's fault, and you are assumed guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.

I've seen that aircraft with so many parts missing for so long, it's a wonder they got it back together correctly. Everyone was surprised, at the time, that they would move the flight training airplane over to hauling passengers full time. Wonder if they'll blame this on the mechanics now also.....

 

[Jack Mehoff]

so by this mindset if in the future a captain gets one stuck in the mud or some other incident, will the pax have to fly the plane??

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

When I worked for Avantair, it was policy that they prefered the FO's not fly legs with passengers, but it was Captains discretion. Knowing the management, I'm sure they've already determined the crew was at fault, no matter what actually happened. Everything is the crew's fault, and you are assumed guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.

I've seen that aircraft with so many parts missing for so long, it's a wonder they got it back together correctly. Everyone was surprised, at the time, that they would move the flight training airplane over to hauling passengers full time. Wonder if they'll blame this on the mechanics now also.....

What a wise man you are, Noodles.

 

[flyboy'sfriend]

Someone wondered how could the managment be so reactionary? All I've ever heard about the managment there is that being reactionary is the one thing that is consistant about them all, and its been like that for years.

I've heard some of the stories about the lower skilled FO's and it wouldn't suprise me that something like this could happen, they should have had more rigorous training, supervision and elimination when they were first hired. Even if it wasn't pilot error this time or the FO's fault, Avantair has had a habit of throwing some real dense FO's into the right seat. And now with this new rule, if I were the captain and let an FO fly a leg managment has not approved, and if something happened, I would be in a extremely vulnerable position.

Why avantair can't manage, improve upon, and regulate the quality of their FO's is beyond me, their pilots are the backbone of their company, yet they do nothing to improve their proficiency, not that this incursion is necessarily an FO error.

They have life long Mx problems that are never resolved, the stories I've heard about how some of the aircraft have been thrown together, it's a wonder the tail section hasn't fallen off a particular aircraft yet.

Stupid is as stupid does, and management is very consistant in their stupidity.

 

[Flybet3]

Someone wondered how could the managment be so reactionary? All I've ever heard about the managment there is that being reactionary is the one thing that is consistant about them all, and its been like that for years.

I've heard some of the stories about the lower skilled FO's and it wouldn't suprise me that something like this could happen, they should have had more rigorous training, supervision and elimination when they were first hired. Even if it wasn't pilot error this time or the FO's fault, Avantair has had a habit of throwing some real dense FO's into the right seat. And now with this new rule, if I were the captain and let an FO fly a leg managment has not approved, and if something happened, I would be in a extremely vulnerable position.

Why avantair can't manage, improve upon, and regulate the quality of their FO's is beyond me, their pilots are the backbone of their company, yet they do nothing to improve their proficiency, not that this incursion is necessarily an FO error.

They have life long Mx problems that are never resolved, the stories I've heard about how some of the aircraft have been thrown together, it's a wonder the tail section hasn't fallen off a particular aircraft yet.

Stupid is as stupid does, and management is very consistant in their stupidity.

ouch!!!!!!