ATTENTION all JetBlue Pilots

[DIAMONDDD]

Probably a strange question but here it goes..

Even when JB pilots unionize (which I've always expected).. Why wouldn't they be stapled below any seniority list if a merger or buyout occured?

They were not a union carrier when they started employment at JB, so why would they deserve anything less than a staple?

I imagine that a buyout or merger is still a long way away, but it is something to think about.

I have come to the conclusion that pilots, as a whole, would hit their grandmothers over the head with a shovel if they thought it would help them make captain sooner, or make an extra buck, or have another day off, or get the holidays off. Then, they would try and justify it somehow. So, union or not, the best the B6 pilots could hope for would be a staple job.

 

[Lear70]

Remember GP, you can CONTRACT through ALPA to get those services, while still retaining your autonomy.

What an in-house union lacks is the war chest if/when it becomes necessary to take it to the mat (legal work action).

You can get the services you need without coughing up a big assessment, although your initial dues might be higher than standard ALPA dues for a couple of years to build a contingency fund, but I'm a firm believer in in-house unions that retain ALPA legal services and aeromedical among others...

 

[a320drivr]

Well said Blue Bayou and A350,
I agree 100 %. Were not ready for a union, maybe a few years down the road, but for now... I will never vote for one. I been in a house union and ALPA, and neither were worth a sh$t....

You dont think we are ready for a union? Are you nuts? Our merger language is a joke, the company changes scheduling rules on a whim, our medical is the worst of any pilot group, etc.

 

[IronCityBlue]

I have come to the conclusion that pilots, as a whole, would hit their grandmothers over the head with a shovel if they thought it would help them make captain sooner, or make an extra buck, or have another day off, or get the holidays off. Then, they would try and justify it somehow. So, union or not, the best the B6 pilots could hope for would be a staple job.

Seniority integration, like pay, days off, respect, and (sometimes) nookie on the overnights, you don't always get what you deserve, but rather what you negotiate.

The TWA pilots didn't "deserve" to have a large percentage of their pilots stapled, but with negotiated away merger language, that was all they got. The furloughed USAir pilots didn't "deserve" to be stapled but what they negotiated was a certain process with binding arbitration at the end and the arbitrator rules that since they didn't bring an active job to the table they should be on the bottom. Both those groups were ALPA.

One of the things I heard USAPA is trying to put in its bylaws and all future contracts is DOH as the only possible merger outcome. But that has to first ne negotiated (and paid for) with management and my guess is that will be severely expensive, if possible at all, to negotiate because it stands to tie manaement's hands by potentially making "the next" merger (and we all know there will be one) even that more difficult to make reality.

It doesn't matter what one "deserves" so while you may feel the JetBlue pilots "deserve" to be stapled as either punishment or sacrificed in tribute at the altar of almighty ALPA, in the end it will come down to the contractual language of either the individual JetBlue pilots (who do have contractual merger language, more on that later) or the structure and content of the JBPA merger language, if ratified and a CBA is negotiated.

But even now, the JetBlue pilots are non union, but they all have contracts. While I would prefer a CBA than individual contracts, some pilots (the same ones spearheading the potential future in house union) did take our contracts to a very experienced airline labor law firm and they were told that its good language that will most likely hold up, that there is no legal reason why it wouldn't, but since no court has seen the exact example of a contracted non union pilot group merge with a unionized pilot group with a CBA, the final outcome of an arbitrator's ruling could not be predicted with any certainty. The contracts have a similar end result, Allegheney Mohawk language in them, the ability for JB pilots to be furloughed but if so a lump sum 1 year's furlough pay and full recall rights and language dealing with that kind of scenario.

Some will argue that just because they are individual contracts they will automatically be vaporized by the mighty ALPA vortex generator double super laser cannon, but they are incorrect. A contract is a contract is a contract. If violated, the JetBlue pilots would have to seek legal redress either individually or collectively via class action, and yes that may take a while. But there is no reason why any judge would invalidate the contracts just to stroke off and validate mighty ALPA.

The longer any settlement took, the bigger and more expensive the payout for the company, and the more painful the resulting seniority integration would be since it would be retroactive, especially for future new hires at the offending airline in question. And I don't really see any company gifting ALPA the courtessy, respect, money or fear in the first place of intentionally violating legal contracts just to quench their beloved ALPA pilot's thirst for merger blood.

If anything, the two companies would be operated seperately until a common list/contract which would not bode well for any ALPA group in any position to buy, take over, acquire or merge with JetBlue, so most likely any ALPA group would be pushing just as hard as the JetBlue pilots (probably harder) for a quick resolution.

Again, I would rather have a CBA for a billion reasons, 999 million, 999 thousand and 999 of them being stand alone airline related. If a takeover situation were to happen, it would be far more simple to have one CBA than 2000 contracts, but if it meant defending one's entire career, simple is convienient, but not at all necessary.

 

[PCL_128]

Remember GP, you can CONTRACT through ALPA to get those services, while still retaining your autonomy.

What an in-house union lacks is the war chest if/when it becomes necessary to take it to the mat (legal work action).

You can get the services you need without coughing up a big assessment, although your initial dues might be higher than standard ALPA dues for a couple of years to build a contingency fund, but I'm a firm believer in in-house unions that retain ALPA legal services and aeromedical among others...

You can only contract with ALPA for limited services. The full ALPA legal team isn't something that can be contracted for. You can contract for negotiations training, aeromedical, E & FA, etc..., but having the full arsenal of the ALPA Legal department at your disposal isn't something that you can get through a services agreement. Like I said before, any union is better than no union at all, but there is simply no comparison to the resources available through full ALPA membership.

 

[redbook]

You can only contract with ALPA for limited services. The full ALPA legal team isn't something that can be contracted for. You can contract for negotiations training, aeromedical, E & FA, etc..., but having the full arsenal of the ALPA Legal department at your disposal isn't something that you can get through a services agreement. Like I said before, any union is better than no union at all, but there is simply no comparison to the resources available through full ALPA membership.

I know what the pro alpa crowd is going to say to my response but what the heck....

Those resources are not put to effective use for the membership. Period.

What was the vote Congress for Age 65? How many fancy charts have been made up by ALPA National over the years basically telling line pilots every where to bend over and take whatever management has dished out?

ALPA legal? Please. They have neglected scope clauses, alter ego protection, etc... and then look forlornly and say "oops". (oh yeah, its the line pilots fault; despite having these great "resources" every pilot should be an attorney and expert on labor law)

I know, I know the resources are great and cue Rez, its all the moronic line pilots fault for not "being involved". So why should anybody vote in ALPA? Ever?

 

[flygirlqt]

I know what the pro alpa crowd is going to say to my response but what the heck....

Those resources are not put to effective use for the membership. Period.

What was the vote Congress for Age 65? How many fancy charts have been made up by ALPA National over the years basically telling line pilots every where to bend over and take whatever management has dished out?

ALPA legal? Please. They have neglected scope clauses, alter ego protection, etc... and then look forlornly and say "oops". (oh yeah, its the line pilots fault; despite having these great "resources" every pilot should be an attorney and expert on labor law)

I know, I know the resources are great and cue Rez, its all the moronic line pilots fault for not "being involved". So why should anybody vote in ALPA? Ever?

You had better put your lecture shield suit on.
But all in all very nice post.

 

[SNOWBUM]

OK, I'll keep the TREAD on target.

Will we have immediate access to an aeromedical division immediately after voting in the union that is staffed by folks whose sole job is to help preserve our jobs?

YES, status quo is preserved, we will continue with Harvey , we can also decided at a later date to hire alap medical services if we think is better and cost competitive.

Will we have immediate access to an experienced legal department whose sole job is to protect our jobs?

yes, swapa and apa outside legal firm has offered us their help pro-bono . once we get going we will keep them and ,of course ,pay them. when it comes to the mundane day to day legal issues we will hire our own lawyer. The alpa lawyers I have worked with that took care of the small companies, l(ike Evrett Barber), are pretty bad indeed, and can't get fired by the MEC. we will have own lawyer that we can fire if he does not perform and we have the ability to pay him

Will we have a big assessment to fund the union? I'm not crazy about coughing up a few thousand dollars all at once.

No, we are 2,000 pilots, we will have an agency shop and those who refuse to pay dues before cba will have to pay back dues after cba with penalties ( JBPA policy manual section 1)

Even though ALPA may (or may not) be corrupt, I think it is the better way to go. Better than "Hey, we got a union. Now what?". While ALPA does have to sign off on any contract, it is the individual airlines' MEC and membership that will set the tone and specifics of the contract.

there is no way Alpa will get voted at JB. there is a reason why after the wilson poll they did not began campaining.

all the guys involved at JBPA have worked in a lot of committees and BOD,LEC,MEC positoions at ALpa, we are not going to say "now what". we do have a road map and a business plan. we are getting help from other independent union who, I can point, have been more succesfull providing unity than Alpa.

i HAVE NOT HAD BAD EXPERIENCES WITH alpa, BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF GUYS THAT HAVE, WHETHER WRONGFULLY PERCEIVED OR NOT, PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING. ALPA, at this point ,will not win even an interest card campaign at JB. JBPA can and with your help, will. join us and lets park the ALPA idea until it/if becomes necessary.

 

[PsubS]

Yeah, great thing the Wilson poll results were announced/published.

Oh wait. They weren't, even though the guys pushing the poll (online at bluepilots.com) said the results would be...

Could it be that the results did not even support a drive for JBPA?

Inquiring minds want to know, Snowbum!

 

[SNOWBUM]

Yeah, great thing the Wilson poll results were announced/published.

Oh wait. They weren't, even though the guys pushing the poll (online at bluepilots.com) said the results would be...

Could it be that the results did not even support a drive for JBPA?

Inquiring minds want to know, Snowbum!

wilson poll was made by alpa and paid by alpa . they have the data no one else does.
if you think we need a union at JB or if you think we don't, go to the meetings and web site and express your opinion.stay informed.

www.jetbluepilots.org

 

[Longhorn]

.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You had better put your lecture shield suit on.
But all in all very nice post.

Better yet.... why don't you explain in objective and critical detail why it is a good post...

Saying "yeah what he said" is easy...

 

[flygirlqt]

Better yet.... why don't you explain in objective and critical detail why it is a good post...

Saying "yeah what he said" is easy...

The accuracy of his post bothers you this much?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The accuracy of his post bothers you this much?

his post are anecdotal and rhetorical. Pure personal opinon without critical thought or academic reasoning..

I am suggesting that you seek out your own understanding instead of simply taking "crewroom" stories as fact.

 

[flygirlqt]

his post are anecdotal and rhetorical. Pure personal opinon without critical thought or academic reasoning..

I am suggesting that you seek out your own understanding instead of simply taking "crewroom" stories as fact.

You mean like that "story" of Prater's $7500/ month living allowance you asked me to prove, which I did, to which you never bothered to respond too? Say what you want, but the reality of today's ALPA was summed up very nicely.

REZ, ALPA has dug a hole so deep of mistrust with the membership even apologists and ALPAlites like you can't even preach your way out of this situation.

Badgering members only makes you look even more helpless than you already are.

 

[SNOWBUM]

And back on the thread:


All JetBlue Pilots, please register at www.jetbluepilots.org

that is the website of the JBPA ( JetBlue pilots association). the JBPA is a pilot union seeking the representation of the JetBlue pilot group.

January 14 is the meeting where constitution-bylaws will ,policy manual,interim leadership and marketing campaign will be set.

be there or listen in


www.jetbluepilots.org

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You mean like that "story" of Prater's $7500/ month living allowance you asked me to prove, which I did, to which you never bothered to respond too? Say what you want, but the reality of today's ALPA was summed up very nicely.

Nice try.... what you did was post a document that the BOD voted on. Simply put the direct representation of the membership voted on Praters pay.

So any efforts to reneg on the Presidents salary are going to have to justify nullifying representational democracy.

Girl, you can keep trying all you want...

REZ, ALPA has dug a hole so deep of mistrust with the membership even apologists and ALPAlites like you can't even preach your way out of this situation.

Not trying to preach.. all I have done was simply invite you to take responsibility for yourself. Something you seem adamant in rejecting.. all your own choice of course...

I find it quite hypocritical of the membership. They won't vote or communicate but yet they demand the leadership listen to them. Explain that logic. and while your at it answer a question that no one has: What responsiblities does the membership have?

You can go with the flow all you want but at the end of the day it is your pay, your work rules, your benefits, your 401k. You want the ALPA leadership to do something different, but you have not the skillset to offer pragmatic solutions.

What would it take for the Presidents salary to be acceptable? If your income was 2x or 3x? Most would say yes... If my income tripled then the Prez's salary would be justified.

So you have a choice:

1. Work to reduce the Prez's salary... this would take allot of effort and success isn't likely. However, if you were successfull, were would your pay be after your success?

2. Work to increase your own pay.

Which seems to be the path of least resistence and shorter time?

Badgering members only makes you look even more helpless than you already are.

I am in full control of what I can control.

What I cannot control is others attitudes. Attitudes like yours:

you refuse to particapte, educate, self govern and provide critical thought. Instead of fixing you want to reject. After you reject..then what?

Do you need someone to ask, beg, plead and coddle you into partication of your own career? You are complaining that your house is dirty. Well, get a mop and duster and get to work... it is your house. Why should I listen to you complain about your filth in your house. My house is clean. My expectations are real.

You have not challenged the status quo one bit.

I don't doubt your concerns. If you think ALPA sucks, then ALPA sucks.. fine... then offer workable solutions. The problem is you cannot. For if you do that would require an acknowledgment of responsibility. Something you refuse to do.

The blame game is...simply easier....



back on track...

And back on the thread:

All JetBlue Pilots, please register at www.jetbluepilots.org

that is the website of the JBPA ( JetBlue pilots association). the JBPA is a pilot union seeking the representation of the JetBlue pilot group.

January 14 is the meeting where constitution-bylaws will ,policy manual,interim leadership and marketing campaign will be set.

be there or listen in


www.jetbluepilots.org

 

[IronCityBlue]

Totally, totally disagree. I was there when my management insisted that UAL was the legacy that had the greatest amount of LCC exposure in the early 00's, and they DEFINITELY were not concerned about the pilot pay, work rules, and retirement packages at DAL, AMR, and CAL. They weren't the ones using dicount labor to undercut us. Managment, however, was very concerned about JetBlue's, Airtran's, SWA's, and Frontier's. And looking at the public numbers that were available at the time, I could see why. We were being massively undercut, and the LCC labor forces were subsidizing it![/qoute]

If you truly believe that then you got duped. Management pulled one over on you and you bought it. To say that JB's tiny presence on few if any overlapping routes dragged down your entire pay scale and the industry in general, while at the same time SWA who was a HUGE Chicago competitor with their much igher pilot wages (higher in small 737's than your 747's) means you were either gullable or helpless to avoid whatever management wanted to impose, which would have been as many concessions as possible regardless of JB existing or not.

My point is that you don't have to match a legacy's ASM's mile for mile to have an effect. To argue that the JetBlue's, Airtran's, and Frontier's of the were only a certain percentage of the ASM's flown by the big legacies and therefore they had little to no effect on trashing yields in overlapping markets is ridiculous.[/qoute]

That's exactly what it means. When you got your big summer of love contract, were there not "the JetBlue's of the world" out there? There are always LCC's (or now "ultra LCC's") out there and there always will be. More germain to the arguement, there always have been. So if it was an excuse then its a standing excuse. You are permitted to lower your wages as low as necessary to keep your jobs, because that is your soverign right because you were here first. But start up airlines are unfairly undercutting you when they pay less than established legacy rates because that's just dirty pool. If you truly believe that, the only answer is complete zero competition (other than the big 6) re-regulation that banns all but the big 6. Good luck getting that legislation passed.

Using that logic, I guess UAL shouldn't be concerned at all about Virgin's growth in SFO. I mean, c'mon! Virgin's ASM's are only a fraction of UAL's! What damage could Virgin possibly do with their $95/hr A320 Captains, right?

Exactly. So is your MEC going to rush right out and undercut VA's rates now? Is that what you're saying? Before you do, which we all know would be 100% not your fault and completely justified, because ou were here first and are entitled to do anything to survive, you first better check and make sure no airline pays less then VA. The only way to survive is to pay the lowest minus 1% regardless of miles flown, routes, network, revenue or any other consideration of the airline in question. If one airline flies one plane at one dollar less than you, you must undercut them to survive. PLEASE tell me you're not on or anywhere near anything even remotely resembling a negotiating committee.

I would LOVE to have this conversation again if Virgin sets up shop in JFK. No worries for JetBlue management there since Virgin would be so much smaller than JetBlue operation in JFK!

VA has already "set up shop" in JFK. And SFO, DEN, LA, SAN, SEA, IAD and soon many other markets we are in as well. We have major issues with our management, but if they slapped down VA's start up pay and said "us too or we'll liquidate" they would get far more than 50% + 1 middle fingers from us. And even if they did do that, I would rather see them liquidate than agree to those terms. But what difference does it make anyway, because according to your logic VA pays less and will therefore take over the entire domestic market with ease.

The only guys that talk tough are the guys that don't understand what unionism can and cannot do concerning pilot wage, work rules, and retirement and the reality of business. You've never seen me type those words (full pay....last day).

Well maybe you should. There is a time and place to use those words (and back them up with actions). A pilot group that is never willing to walk away under any circumstances is a push over group who deserves what they get, and that goes for JB as well.

I'm more concerned about third world pilots coming flying aircraft within my country for third world wages. But I guess as long as these airlines don't get as big (ASM-wise) as all of us, we have nothing to worry about!

Or, according to your logic, if one third world airline flies one city pair, you will be immediately forced to undercut them to survive, be justified in doing so, and sleep well at night knowing you can blame them for all the woes of the profession.

And heads up, here comes open skies. While not cabotage per say, it will for the first time in history open up our international market. Isn't that your bread and butter? Your future? To heck with domestic, sell that to management to give to SkyWest! So how will that work out for you when every European airline in existance can raid any US international city pair at will? No matter though, as long as their pilots make as much or more than you, you will be fine with it even if they take over then entire international network, but a single Air China route will immediately call for deep concessions, right?

I never said any of the aircraft you mentioned above was "just an RJ." I have no idea what you're talking about.

Your pilot group sold/gave away that flying to management, and the VAST majority of it was outside of bankruptcy. You can't permit that flying to be outsourced to the virtual ACMI operator with the lowest costs immaginable and then act all righteously indignant about JB's 190 pay. It was your pilot group (marching in lockstep with others) who gave away almost 50% of your respective airline's block hour flying for "regional wages" in jets just one plug away from the 190, and even the common type in the first place. For you to then cry foul that JB flies the 190 for more than what you allow the same plane with a plug missing to be outsourced for much less is extremely disingenuous and you know it. Get your flying back and we'll talk. But you won't and we both know it.

The E190 that JetBlue flies is a 100 seat 737/DC-9 sized aircraft- not an "RJ" sized aircraft.

As opposed to the 170/175/700/705/900 that is just a coupole rows different in size and the same type that YOU allow to be outsourced for less, which somehow IS a "regional jet"? Really? Are you serious about that? AYFKM?

But OK, you argue that the E190 has a seating capacity slightly less than the average 737 and probably something resembling DC-9 seating capacity. So the E190 rates should have been something slightly less than whatever 737/DC9 guys were earning, but certainly not 70 bucks an hour!!! I find it amazing that you are rationalizing that JetBlue's current E190 rates were/are a fair rate considering the seating capacity of this aircraft compared to similarly sized aircraft at other major airlines.

I've said all along the 190 paid too little, but legacy airlines take a large share of the blame for that because before the first (busted up POS) 190 came on property at JB, every legacy already outsourced jets almost as big as the 190 for "regional wages". Even now your entire arguement hinges on the remaining 737's (all small 737's) that UAL still has (and has threatened to dump on a dime) and its common pay with your 320 as part of your concession package. So JB comes up with a regional rate and USAir and Delta can't pounce on 10 year contract (which is the timetable including fake negotiations by the company) rates for that plane themselves (which they didn't even operate at the time). According to your logic, legacy management should forgoe one bonus and all chip in to buy a single 777 for JetBlue, and then that entire pay table can be decimated as well.

So the 190 should pay 737 rates because its only slightly smaller, but its okay for you to outsource the 170 for regional rates even though its only slightly smaller? So what you're saying is no one but you is rightfully allowed to do what you define as undercutting? Right. Get your flying back. Seriouslly, get it back. Let me guess, too late, not your fight? Thank God CAL and AA don't share your sense of helplessness.

UAL management doesn't have the right to outsource anything bigger than the E170. And they're limited to 70 seats. And the sideletter that allowed the E170 in particular was a tactical error on our union leadership's part that may be reversible in '09.

It is most definately reversable, the ONLY issue is how hard are you willing to fight for it? And in any case, the 700 (RJ) still seats as many. And any larger RJ that is certified to seat more than 70 but only seats 70 (or 76 ala Delta Connection) is still measured in what it is certified to seat. A 90 seater is still a 90 seater, etc. Putting a first class in it and bragging that you kept the seats down with your scope is the joke of the century. I can just see management now "oh please don't throw us into the briar patch by forcing us to install a premium revenue generating first class in oursourced jets we farm out with your permission to the lowest bidder!"

 

[ualdriver]

Listen, I'm not typing out another diatribe tribe to argue you point for point. Here's a summation to the best of my ability....

On JetBlue's E190 pay rates:

IronCity: JetBlue's E190 rates are adequate because they're almost the size of the RJ's that the legacy carriers outsource. E190's are "only one fuselage plug away" from the 50-70 seat RJ's that are already outsourced so E190 pay should be compared to these types of jets, and not DC-9's/717's or 737's. It's the legacies' fault for outsourcing 50-70 seat RJ's and that JetBlue is flying the 100 seat E190 for 50-70 seat RJ rates. IronCity feels that JetBlue E190 wages are relatively fair for that reason.

Ualdriver: JetBlue is flying a 100 seat jet, similar in size to the 104 seat 737-500's Ualdriver flies or the DC-9's Northwest flies or the 717's that other competitors fly for wages that are closer to existing 50-70 seat RJ wages than other 100 seat jets flown at its major airline competitors. UALdriver thinks JetBlue's E190 rates are way too low for a 100 seat jet, and that JetBlue should be comparing its 100 seat MAINLINE JET to other airlines' 100 seat MAINLINE JET wages and not comparing it to other 50-76 seat REGIONAL AIRLINE RJ wages.


On the degradation of Airline Pilot wages, work rules, and retirement in the early 00's:

IronCity: Airlines like JetBlue bear little, if any, responsibility for the degradation in wages, work rules, and retirement, that characterized the plight of the legacy airline pilot in the early 00's. Airlines like JetBlue were too small to have any effect on the legacy carriers. Other factors, not LCC competitive pressure, are the more proximate cause for the degradation of legacy airline pilot pay, work rules, and retirement.

UALdriver: Airlines like JetBlue, Airtran, and Frontier, contributed greatly to the degradation in wages, work rules, and retirement that characterized the plight of the legacy airline pilot in the early 00's. Airlines such as JetBlue, Airtran, and Frontier, although not individually as big as the legacies, collectively reached a "critical mass" and used their low paid airline employees, including airline pilots working for greatly discounted compensation packages, to massively undercut the legacies. Legacies were forced to restructure in order to remain competitive with these new LCC competitors. Legacy airline pilots were forced through a combination of LCC competitive pressure and bankruptcy courts to accept LCC airline pilot wages, work rules, and retirement, or become unable to compete with these LCC competitors and perish.

On cabotage:

IronCity: "I worry about them because if we ever truly get 100% open skies (cabotage) there will be so much competition all at once from established existing infrastructures our US pilot labor force may collapse........To me cabotage is a basic issue of national soveriegnty. I don't care if the intruding airline has lower, equal or significantly higher labor costs........."

UALdriver: Cabotage is probably the greatest threat to the U.S. airline pilot because, unlike IronCity, I DO care if the "intruding" airlines has lower labor costs. I saw and experienced, first hand, the tremendous damage that undercutting LCC airlines did to the legacy pay strucure in the early 00's, and I certainly DO NOT want to see the same thing happen again to every airline pilot in the U.S. airline industry when a third world airline starts flying between points in the U.S. for third world airline pilot wages. It is difficult, if not impossible, for any airline to be competitive and survive long term with a significant labor cost disadvantage. Cabotage could be potentially devastating to the U.S. Airline Pilot, and his career compensation expectations, national sovereignty issues aside.


I just saved everyone who is really bored a lot of reading. They can decide who makes more sense.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Close, but I never said or implied that the 190 rates at JB, AAA or DAL (though I've never seen an official DAL 190 pay table, it is supposedly very close to JB pay on the 190) was fair, relatively fair or remotely close to fair. I only pointed out that you (a healthy combination of all legacy airlines, except CAL, and hopefully soon AA) can't outsource 70, 76, 90 and 100 seat jets (even if you "restrict" management to 70 or 76 seats installed, which is a complete joke, because that just lets management use a first class which they wanted to do anyway) for lower than 190 rates and then say how its unfair that the 190 pays less than the 737.

ualdriver:
The 190 is slightly smaller than the 737 so it should be paid the same. We, on the other hand, are totally entitled to outsource the 170 and other planes only slightly smaller than the 190 for dramatically less than the 737, and that's totally fair. You are ruining the profession for flying the 190 for those rates.

IronCityBlue:
Uh, say again, chief?

Should the 190 be considered and paid on par with other "mainline" aircraft? Absolutely! But so should the 175, 170, RJ900, RJ705, RJ700, etc.

As for your 9-11 concessions, if you really believe UAL was "the most exposed to LCC pressure" I honestly don't know what to tell you, other than please don't ever participate in any negotiation committee. At the time UAL was arguably the least exposed, not considering SWA, and since this is a "pilot pay at XYZ caused my pilot pay" assertion on your part, you can't very well include SWA. Your revenue took a fatal blow after 9-11 and it wasn't JB's taking all the supersavers from NY to FL that did you in. It couldn't have been SWA, because of their pilot pay, which as we all know determines everything, it wasn't AirTran by a long shot, or Sun Country, or Allegiant, or USA3000, or Virgin America, or anyone else except maybe Frontier, but then as now, they are a blip on the radar compared to UAL. But the most important thing is you believe it. Maybe this common ground you and management found can be the catalyst for your next contract.

And for cabotage, you have far more to fear from the "Lufthansas of the world" than you do the "Air Mongolias of the world" because it will be the well established international, high pilot pay European beheamoth airlines that will raid your international gravy train in the coming years. Is it prudent to keep our guard up for "third world" wage pressure? Sure it is. But "the British are coming!!!!" and they're bringing backup this time. 1 if by land, 2 if by sea and 3 if by air, and the fun starts real soon.

But tell us more about this contractual overlook thing that "might be corrected" regarding the outsourcing of the E170. That would be a refreshing step in the right direction.