ATP School Program? What are regionals/ Majors looking for?

[wuberoo]

This is a question for those that have been through the training, why would someone choose ATP fast track program over a local flight school? And what really are regional and major carriers looking for? How do most people get their ratings for the majors (737)? And flying overseas is it a good option if you don't mind living conditions?

Thanks in advance!

 

[ualdriver]

This is a question for those that have been through the training, why would someone choose ATP fast track program over a local flight school? And what really are regional and major carriers looking for? How do most people get their ratings for the majors (737)? And flying overseas is it a good option if you don't mind living conditions?

Thanks in advance!

One advantage is that you'll get more multi-time. The other advantage is that you'll be able to go through your ratings quickly in a relatively structured environment. Another advantage is that you might be able to get financing through ATP for their flight training where you might not be able to get it through a local flight school. ATP might be able to hire you as a flight instructor in a multi-engine aircraft (eventually) whereas a local flight school might not have any job opportunities for you after you're done with training. ATP may have a path to a regional airline job (when/if they ever hire) whereas a local flight school will likely not have that path.

For all of the above, you'll likely pay more than if you just went through a local flight school. Figure out the cost difference and see if it's worth it to you.

This is a pretty decent website you might want to read if you're new and thinking about entering the profession.

 

[wuberoo]

Thanks UAL, I viewed the PBS special last night about the Buffalo flight #3407 and that was very sobering. If this is a career change at the age of 40, what other items need to be considered in this decision?

 

[Lynxman]

I'll take the time to give you my honest opinion on this matter. I started Pt. 141 at SIU I went about half way through my insturment rating with them when I made the jump to a local mom an pop FBO in Chicago. I don't regret my decision at all. The money I saved and the experience I gained was well worth it. My regret in this whole ordeal was not going Pt. 61 from the beginning. I went to ATP to finish up my Comm. Multi and was satisfied with the experience, but let's be honest after I was done there I had 10 hours of multi in a Seminole hardly the experience needed to fly a more complex twin let alone a jet at an airline. The real experience will come from going out there on your own and really learning by instructing or flying on your own. This is all my opinion so take it for what its worth. PT. 141 is more structured than 61, but neither one is better or worse than the other. When it boils down to it both places will teach you to pass a checkride per PTS standards. 141 will take you longer than a 61 school. ATP's fast track is literally a 7 days a week program. You cram a lot into those days, so if you can be motivated enough this will work great for you. Being that your 40 most would say adults would be more motivated to learn than a younger person, but that's up to the individual. To be completely honest if it was up to me and I had to start over again knowing what I know now I'd have chosen ATP's fast track program. You will recieve lot's of different opinions on this matter take it all in with a gran of salt don't rush into anything and really contemplate doing this as a career change.

 

[ualdriver]

Thanks UAL, I viewed the PBS special last night about the Buffalo flight #3407 and that was very sobering. If this is a career change at the age of 40, what other items need to be considered in this decision?

Did you read the website I linked above? I'd read that site from beginning to end. There are also some sections for career changers.
www.thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com

I wouldn't recommend this profession for a career changer unless you are really, really, really passionate about aviation. I don't know what you do for a living now, but hopefully you understand a few things:

1. That there is currently a huge oversupply of pilots in the industry right now instead of there only being a mere large oversupply of pilots in normal economic times.

2. There are thousands of unemployed pilots on the street right now, and it will likely be years before they are reabsorbed by the airlines. They will likely be hired before you will be.

3. Entry level jobs in this profession are of poor quality and have very low pay. I hope you have significant savings, a working spouse, or have the ability to live on $1500 per month (gross) or less for many years.

I hate to be negative, but unfortunately things for most professional pilots have been really bad over the past decade and there really is no light at the end of the tunnel. If I were you, unless things get better in the near future, I'd perhaps keep my day job and learn to fly and get your certificates and ratings on the side, slowly, paying cash as you go. If by some miracle things get better for the profession over the up and coming years, you'll have your ratings, little or no debt, and be ready for that 15 to 20K a year flight instructor job. I don't see much point on taking on 50 to 60K in debt to go through an accelerated flight program if there is no job at the other end.

 

[wuberoo]

Thanks! I am currently unemployed for the past 6 mos. and have been a business owner for the past 10yrs. finally the economy took me out. I did read that website article from top to bottom and it just smells bad for you all that have to deal w/ the crappy airline cos. I just have had a passion for flying a long time and missed out on it 20 years ago but it seemed that I would have been in the same situation 20 yrs. later anyway. Thanks again!!

 

[ualdriver]

Thanks! I am currently unemployed for the past 6 mos. and have been a business owner for the past 10yrs. finally the economy took me out. I did read that website article from top to bottom and it just smells bad for you all that have to deal w/ the crappy airline cos. I just have had a passion for flying a long time and missed out on it 20 years ago but it seemed that I would have been in the same situation 20 yrs. later anyway. Thanks again!!

Well, if you're coming in eyes wide open and you still want to do it, good luck to you and I hope I am wrong about the future of this profession, for all of our sakes! If you have more questions, post away or PM.

 

[whatfuelpolicy]

This is a question for those that have been through the training, why would someone choose ATP fast track program over a local flight school? And what really are regional and major carriers looking for? How do most people get their ratings for the majors (737)? And flying overseas is it a good option if you don't mind living conditions?

Thanks in advance!

It has been my experience that the Fast track is not the best way to go right now. I recommend that you take your time and learn how to fly instead of being force-fed aviation and how to fly a Seminole in 90 days. The airlines aren't hiring anybody with low time and even ATP's LOA's with the airlines are going to have to change with the potential FAA Part 121 FO Minimums (800 hours was the last I heard).

 

[metrodriver808]

One advantage is that you'll get more multi-time. The other advantage is that you'll be able to go through your ratings quickly in a relatively structured environment. Another advantage is that you might be able to get financing through ATP for their flight training where you might not be able to get it through a local flight school. ATP might be able to hire you as a flight instructor in a multi-engine aircraft (eventually) whereas a local flight school might not have any job opportunities for you after you're done with training. ATP may have a path to a regional airline job (when/if they ever hire) whereas a local flight school will likely not have that path.

For all of the above, you'll likely pay more than if you just went through a local flight school. Figure out the cost difference and see if it's worth it to you.

This is a pretty decent website you might want to read if you're new and thinking about entering the profession.

good post! I did my commercial multi and ATP with allATPs and I think they do a pretty good job. I regret not starting with them from the beginning.

 

[wuberoo]

Is it worth it to purchase an older twin to help in getting time? Or try teaching for a long time? The problem I see with teaching for your time is that there may not be very many students left to teach!!! Is the military a viaable option or is it a huge pain to try and be picked for their flight schools? I'm not talking about fighter planes but any cargo or jet time flying period?
Thanks

 

[ualdriver]

Is it worth it to purchase an older twin to help in getting time? Or try teaching for a long time? The problem I see with teaching for your time is that there may not be very many students left to teach!!! Is the military a viaable option or is it a huge pain to try and be picked for their flight schools? I'm not talking about fighter planes but any cargo or jet time flying period?
Thanks

If you have the cash, you could buy an airplane, hire an instructor on the side, then sell it when you're done with your flight training. I personally wouldn't buy a multi-engine airplane if you were going to go that route, but that's me. I doubt you could get insurance on a multi-engine airplane as a low time guy, anyway, without an instructor. Until recently, used aircraft weren't depreciating that much. It was possible to buy a used trainer, train and fly in it for a couple of years, then sell it for about what you bought it for. The risk is, of course, is that you can't sell the plane when you need to after a couple of years or it depreciates in value so much that it would have been cheaper to rent.

Flight instructing sucks, mostly because of the extremely low pay most earn. That's the path most of us civilian guys took. If you learn to fly at a quality, busy flight school, they might hire you after you complete your training. Whether or not there will be pilots to train is unpredictable, but the FAA is showing declining numbers of pilots learning to fly. Whether that's because of the current economic conditions and/or less people are choosing the profession because of the recent extreme degradation of pay and quality of life is open to conjecture. Regardless, one might want to take into consideration going to a flight school where you have a reasonable chance of being hired as a flight instructor after training. Of course, that's not the only thing I would consider.

The military is an option, sure, assuming you're young enough. I would imagine that if you don't go to a military academy and/or you don't go through a ROTC program that it would be pretty hard to get one of those coveted pilot slots, fighter or not. It's competitive, and unlike civilian flight schools where the only criteria to begin training is a pulse and a checkbook, you'll likely be competing against other people who are educated, dedicated, and motivated. Getting a pilot slot in the military is obviously more difficult than just showing up at a flight school with the money. Hopefully some military guys will chime in.

 

[wuberoo]

Thanks for the good words, can anyone suggest what how the regionals are rated? Quality of co. towards crews or new pilots? I keep reading that SKW is one who takes very low time new pilots and pays them very poorly. I've tried to look hear on the site for something like this but not finding it. Also, I wanted to ask about the foreign carriers and Cargo pilots how they came about their positions and what typically their Co. looked for to hire them??

Thanks

 

[ualdriver]

Thanks for the good words, can anyone suggest what how the regionals are rated? Quality of co. towards crews or new pilots? I keep reading that SKW is one who takes very low time new pilots and pays them very poorly. I've tried to look hear on the site for something like this but not finding it. Also, I wanted to ask about the foreign carriers and Cargo pilots how they came about their positions and what typically their Co. looked for to hire them??

Thanks

Most if not all of the regionals are held in poor regard by most on this board. Asking which one is the best is like asking what feels better- getting punched in the ribs or punched in the stomach The pilots that work for them are good people, but the companies themselves suck. They generally have poor quality of life and low pay, especially as a new hire. Because pilots are a dime a dozen and regional airlines have enjoyed a perpetual oversupply of pilots for the past 20 years, regional airline management treat their pilots accordingly.

Almost all regionals take low time pilots when they are hiring. The amount of flight time required/experience required to get hired by most regionals depends upon the economy. Right now, there are literally thousands of pilots unemployed, so they can be picky and will only hire quality people with a lot of experience.

There are brief periods of time where the regionals have a hard time hiring pilots- the last one was in 2007. These times are often referred to as "pilot shortages" by flight school salesmen and aeronautical universities. Of course, there were no pilot shortages at that time, only a "shortage" of pilots willing to work for fast food wages. But I digress. During those brief times, the regionals would take anyone with a commercial pilot certificate and a pulse willing to work for around $20,000/year. For that brief period, guys went from flight school directly to the right seat of a regional airliner.

The pilots working for foreign carriers are highly experienced, with 1000's of hours of turbojet flight time. I'd bet many of them were Captains at some point in their careers. They often get their jobs through pilot recruitment organizations such as this one. From my own observations, the guys I know that work at foreign carriers are only there because there are no jobs in the U.S. Most don't enjoy having to pick up and move their families to far flung destinations.

The cargo guys get their jobs like any other airline pilot job. Cargo carriers like FEDEX and UPS are probably the best jobs in the industry right now, and one will likely have to have 1000's of hours of flight time and a decade or two of experience to even be considered for a position when/if they do start hiring. There are some lower tier cargo carriers, like the one I used to work for, that will hire low time guys just like the regionals do. How little experience they require depends totally upon the economy, just like the regionals. In 2007, you probably could have gotten on with a crappy cargo carrier with just a few hundred hours and a commercial pilot certificate. With 1000's of pilots currently unemployed, you'd probably have to have 1000's of flight hours for a position with a cargo carrier held in low regard.

 

[wuberoo]

I really appreciate the info because at my age I enjoy flying but want to make sure that I can make good sound choices for a career. (OK, that sounds alittle odd looking into airline flying, I know!) Thanks for the site info for hiring-UAL- , it has good information to view and get a good understanding on what needs to be done. What other sites are good for viewing openings for the low guy? Do the carriers help pay for the type ratings when you come in?

Thanks

 

[ualdriver]

I really appreciate the info because at my age I enjoy flying but want to make sure that I can make good sound choices for a career. (OK, that sounds alittle odd looking into airline flying, I know!) Thanks for the site info for hiring-UAL- , it has good information to view and get a good understanding on what needs to be done. What other sites are good for viewing openings for the low guy? Do the carriers help pay for the type ratings when you come in?

Thanks

I wish other guys would chime in with their perspective, because it may be different from mine. Unfortunately, I don't think many guys look at this section of the forum.

That Parc aviation site probably doesn't apply to low time guys. I just used it as an example when you asked how a foreign pilot can find a job. You can look at some of the job search websites like this one. You can go to individual airlines' websites and look in their employment section. Some has pilot hiring information. You can go to a website like this one for general information about pay and hiring. Their forum is also pretty active. In fact, if you post questions over there, too, you'll get a different perspective than what I'm giving you.

Most airlines (except the "pay for training" airlines like Gulfstream) will pay for your initial training. Airlines that make you pay for training are generally held in very low regard in the industry. Most pilots feel that once you pay for your initial training that it should be the airline's responsibility to train you and incur that cost, especially considering how low entry level pay is. Many pilots will not like you very much if they find out you "paid for training," like they do over at Gulfstream. They feel it hurts the profession because if Gulfstream gets away with it, other regionals may follow, hurting us all, among other things.

 

[CX880]

At 40, you're going to be limited in this career if you actually try to pursue it. I should say that many are leaving aviation, not because they don't enjoy it but because there is no future for it unless there is dramatic change, like re-regulation.

At your age, I would try to avoid the us airlines completely, right now they are a disaster and it will only get worse. Get your ratings fast, build that time and try corporate or int flying, they pay more and it's a good route for people that don't have 10/20 years to waste in the regional airline trenches.

 

[wuberoo]

Is very possible for a new pilot to get on internationally I understood that they are in worse shape than US?

 

[ualdriver]

Is very possible for a new pilot to get on internationally I understood that they are in worse shape than US?

I wouldn't plan on working overseas as a new guy. One, you have to have the right to work in many overseas countries, and unless they're desperate for pilots, that will be difficult. Two, overseas jobs are very desirable right now because those airlines are the only ones that are hiring and paying a professional wage (i.e. non-fast food wages). Since they are very desirable and there is a huge worldwide oversupply of pilots right now, they can choose pretty much anyone they want. They'll want guys with a lot of flight time and experience which a new guy won't have.

Now, if the economy turns around, airlines in the U.S. start hiring, and the foreign airlines start losing their U.S. pilots because they'd rather work in the U.S. than overseas, then maybe pilots of lesser experience will be considered for jobs overseas. But my crystal ball is awfully cloudy, so who knows what will happen in the future. Looking in the past, however, we have seen an oversupply of pilots for two decades, except for very short periods of time where regional airlines had difficulty finding $20,000/year pilots. Again, these brief periods are often referred to (laughingly) as a "pilot shortage." Note that a quality overseas airline, like Cathay Pacific, for example, will likely never experience a pilot shortage.

 

[Lynxman]

I wouldn't even think about considering an airline as a career now.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

There's always the virtual airlines. No age 65 and work when you want. Even get to fly drunk!