ATC yelled at me today....

[dhc8fo]

So I was about 13 minutes from my destination and still at 15,000. When I asked for lower, they descended me to 2,000. I was cleared for the visual at 5,000' over my homefield and so I made a right descending 360 degree turn to enter the 45 at traffic pattern altitude.

I had gotten the frequency change and everything, but I hadn't cancelled yet. I monitor approach when I switch to unicom so I can listen for anything weird and I hear the guy yelling at me that I am flying away from the airport and that my landing clearance is cancelled and I need to fly such-and-such heading..... HUH??? He was being a REAL tool too!

Did I do something wrong? Was I not cleared for a visual (in VMC) and cleared to switch to the unicom? Therefore, can't I do whatever the hell I want??

I switched back and told him to cancel my IFR and basically ignored his rant, but I just gotta know... DID I DO SOMETHING WRONG that I don't realize?

Please put my mind at ease...or tell me I am wrong and I will hit the books.

 

[gkrangers]

I don't see what you did wrong.

 

[cynic]

Oh my God! You don't know about that rule. How did you get your license???

 

[GravityHater]

He's just trying to get you to cancel earlier.... for tomorrow's flight.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I had gotten the frequency change and everything, but I hadn't cancelled yet. I monitor approach when I switch to unicom so I can listen for anything weird and I hear the guy yelling at me that I am flying away from the airport and that my landing clearance is cancelled...

Perhaps I am missing something, but from the information you have provided it appears that you were flying into a non-towered airport. If that was the case, then how was there a "landing clearance" to be cancelled in the first place?

 

[gkrangers]

Perhaps I am missing something, but from the information you have provided it appears that you were flying into a non-towered airport. If that was the case, then how was there a "landing clearance" to be cancelled in the first place?

im ASSuming he meant approach clearance cancelled.

he probably wanted you to cancel ifr....hint hint hint hint hint....

 

[MarineGrunt]

The AIM states that you should make a "normal" approach to the airport when cleared visual. Maybe the 360 took him by surprise or threw a monkey wrench in his plans.

BTW- how would doing a 360 make you any more aligned to enter on a 45 to downwind??? :nuts:

 

[gkrangers]

And, I'm no expert, but descending into the pattern can be bad news.

 

[cezzna]

He didn't expect the 360 and in a panic thought you were going somewhere else. He didn't realize that you were doing a 360, his screen just showed a heading that didn't add up in his head. I don't know how many miles you get on a visual but he probably thought where is he going and what traffic do i have out there in a panic. Then he vented on you. If you had told him you were going to do a 360 he probably wouldn't have cared. You didn't do anything wrong as far as I can see. What were you flying? If it was a DC-8 or any other jet at 200KIAS, you can cover some ground.

 

[gkrangers]

Oh..and ATC yelled at you? It won't be the last time! Just yell back!

 

[MarineGrunt]

Also, ATC is responsible for your separation after you are cleared the visual, until you either land or cancel. As the above poster said, you probably just caught him in a crabby mood and he wondered WTF was going on. No big deal though.

AIM 5-5-5
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/AIM.pdf

 

[minitour]

Just yell back!

LMFAO

-mini

 

[DavTheViking]

Don't take crap from people that live off your tax dollars....

 

[FL420]

...... DID I DO SOMETHING WRONG that I don't realize?

Please put my mind at ease...or tell me I am wrong and I will hit the books.

Yes, you did something wrong. I suggest you review the AIM 5-4-21:




5-4-21. Visual Approach

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport. The pilot must have either the airport or the preceding identified aircraft in sight. This approach must be authorized and controlled by the appropriate air traffic control facility. Reported weather at the airport must have a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater. ATC may authorize this type approach when it will be operationally beneficial. Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual meteorological conditions. Cloud clearance requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.155 are not applicable, unless required by operation specifications.


b. Operating to an Airport Without Weather Reporting Service. ATC will advise the pilot when weather is not available at the destination airport. ATC may initiate a visual approach provided there is a reasonable assurance that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g. area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.).

c. Operating to an Airport With an Operating Control Tower. Aircraft may be authorized to conduct a visual approach to one runway while other aircraft are conducting IFR or VFR approaches to another parallel, intersecting, or converging runway. When operating to airports with parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet, the succeeding aircraft must report sighting the preceding aircraft unless standard separation is being provided by ATC. When operating to parallel runways separated by at least 2,500 feet but less than 4,300 feet, controllers will clear/vector aircraft to the final at an angle not greater than 30 degrees unless radar, vertical, or visual separation is provided during the turn-on. The purpose of the 30 degree intercept angle is to reduce the potential for overshoots of the final and to preclude side-by-side operations with one or both aircraft in a belly-up configuration during the turn-on. Once the aircraft are established within 30 degrees of final, or on the final, these operations may be conducted simultaneously. When the parallel runways are separated by 4,300 feet or more, or intersecting/converging runways are in use, ATC may authorize a visual approach after advising all aircraft involved that other aircraft are conducting operations to the other runway. This may be accomplished through use of the ATIS.

d. Separation Responsibilities. If the pilot has the airport in sight but cannot see the aircraft to be followed, ATC may clear the aircraft for a visual approach; however, ATC retains both separation and wake vortex separation responsibility. When visually following a preceding aircraft, acceptance of the visual approach clearance constitutes acceptance of pilot responsibility for maintaining a safe approach interval and adequate wake turbulence separation.

e. A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft is expected to remain clear of clouds and contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. Separation from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances.​

f. Visual approaches reduce pilot/controller workload and expedite traffic by shortening flight paths to the airport. It is the pilot's responsibility to advise ATC as soon as possible if a visual approach is not desired.


​

g. Authorization to conduct a visual approach is an IFR authorization and does not alter IFR flight plan cancellation responsibility.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-[/SIZE][SIZE=-2]AIM, Canceling IFR Flight Plan, Paragraph 5-1-14.[/SIZE]
​

h. Radar service is automatically terminated, without advising the pilot, when the aircraft is instructed to change to advisory frequency.

You should have:
1. Reported the field in sight
2. Cancelled your IFR flight plan in the air or later on the ground
3. Intercepted the final approach course and completed a straight-in landing making the appropriate calls on unicom.
4. Advised ATC if you wanted to do anything else(like a 45 degree downwind entry or a 360 to lose altitude.)


​

​

 

[pilothouston123]

Our home airport is uncontrolled. I like to cancel in the air with approach if i can decend into the airport leagally under VFR. Not only does it ease other airplanes that might be on an approach to the same airport, it allows me to get int0 the traffic flow easier. And I wont forget after I lnad then.

 

[Focus]

This reminds me of a time when I was asked by a controller if I had the 737 ahead in sight which had just been cleared for a visual approach. I told the controller that I did have the 73 in sight and I was then instructed to follow that traffic and I also was cleared for the visual approach. Well, just about the time the controller had finished getting the words out of his mouth, the preceding 73 turned away from the airport going God knows where. The controller went into a whirlwind and reprimanded the 73 for turning away from the airport...I was immeaditely told to maintain my altitude and given a heading away from the 73. Then the controller started to ask the other driver where on Gods Earth was he heading. The conversation went down hill very quickly as my Capt. and I laughed at the final thing we heard come out of the controllers mouth. I quote " I have never in all my life seen a professional pilot turn away from the airport when cleared for a visual" .

It was just too funny. Mind you, we were both about 20 miles away from landing at altitudes not greater than 7000' AGL.

There are many reasons to turn away from an airport, do a 360, or what ever you need...Just let the controllers know what your doing when its appropriate, ie..Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. You did not do anything wrong. You may have communicated better to the controller, but again your not wrong. Controllers have alot more going on then you or me when it comes to keeping things moving in harmony and at times Im sure that pressure builds on them...I know I could never be a controller. Wait a minute, they have retirement pensions dont they? Dont Sweat it !!!

 

[Dumbluck]

firs time i loggeed on fter drinkng, f'em, seriously whip out the johnson and stick'um enough don't lrt anybody screw I MEAN scare u into anything

what's this thread about?

 

[Say Again Over]

You are confusing VISUAL APPROACH and VFR, not the same, here's an example:

"Approach, this is Lear 123, SWA 737 and the airport in sight".

"Roger Lear 123, cleared for the VISUAL approach RW 24R, contact the tower".
Now what do you think would happen if you now decided to do something like a 360?
A VISUAL approach is in conjunction with an IFR clearance.

 

[PC800]

DID I DO SOMETHING WRONG that I don't realize?

Yes. You were cleared for a visual approach, but you were still on an IFR flight plan-- which means the controller was still responsible for providing separation between you and other IFR aircraft. He provides that separation by anticipating where you're going to go-- which should have been direct to the airport-- and handling other aircraft accordingly. That unexpected 360 could have easily resulted in a loss of separation.

If you needed to do a 360, for whatever reason, you should have either canceled IFR first, or requested the 360 from the controller (so he could make any necessary adjustments to other IFR traffic).

 

[dhc8fo]

For those who think I was wrong.....does this change anything because after thinking about it, I don't see where I was "wrong."

...I had already been given the frequency change and was tranmitting on the UNCONTROLLED field's unicom. I hadn't cancelled yet because it is a busy outlying field with lots of traffic and I monitor the approach freq until I am assured that I can meld into the VFR traffic at the field. Seems reasonable to me....

Coming from directly west and landing on 28 and over the field at 5,000....there is no way in hell the controlled expected me to enter a downwind and then turn to the final approach course or else I would have ended up in his C airspace al little over 10 miles away. I was moving at 260 across the ground (indicating 160 mind you) and my I need to cool my plane's turbos so I can't just chop the power and boogie on down, much to my dismay (I pay the bills and regardless, that ain't the way to do it in this plane)....

I do see where I could have cancelled earlier or told the guy about the turn, but since I was already switched I didn't think he cared....so I don't see that I did anything wrong, but in the future I will be better about informing the controller of my plans. How's that?

 

[spudskier]

again, as mentioned and the way I understand it, a visual approach is a straigh-in approach... if you're coming in from any other direction than from straigh on (which the controllers usually vector you for anyway) then make a beeline towards a place that will within one turn, put you on final... anotherwords the shortest route to final approach if not already on the final leg, no 45 to a downwind, go to the airport and land (of course adivse CTAF that you're "x" direction from the airport inbound for a visual runway "x") but this is not standard pattern entry as you would if you were VFR... as I understand it

 

[PC800]

....so I don't see that I did anything wrong...

Your mistake is to believe that, because you've received clearance for a visual approach, "Therefore, can't I do whatever the hell I want??". That's just not the case-- pilot acceptance of a visual approach clearance carries some responsibilities, among them:


"AIM 5-5-11. Visual Approach
a. Pilot.
3. The pilot must, at all times, have either the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight. After being cleared for a visual approach, proceed to the airport in a normal manner or follow the preceding aircraft. Remain clear of clouds while conducting a visual approach."


See the part in red above? You didn't uphold your responsibility to proceed to the airport in a "normal manner"-- you made a 360 instead.

Let's say the controller was working another IFR in the vicinity, and that the controller had vectored that aircraft to passed safely behind yours as you flew direct to the airport. Then, you make an unexpected 360, causing a loss of separation between that aircraft and yours.

Somebody is going to be held responsible for that loss of separation. That somebody will most likely be you.

 

[John2375]

Oh..and ATC yelled at you? It won't be the last time! Just yell back!

I'm sure ATC didn't yell at you...perhaps you mean they admonished you for improper procedure?? I know that sounds more snooty, but people's misuse of the word "yell" drives me crazy - "yell" is to shout, scream - to be admonished for something or told you can't do something whether by ATC or the parking attendant or the grocery clerk or whoever, is not being" yelled at"

 

[ReverseSensing]

I'm sure ATC didn't yell at you...perhaps you mean they admonished you for improper procedure?? I know that sounds more snooty, but people's misuse of the word "yell" drives me crazy - "yell" is to shout, scream - to be admonished for something or told you can't do something whether by ATC or the parking attendant or the grocery clerk or whoever, is not being" yelled at"

You don't have to yell at me!

 

[troy]

...I had already been given the frequency change and was tranmitting on the UNCONTROLLED field's unicom. I hadn't cancelled yet because it is a busy outlying field with lots of traffic and I monitor the approach freq until I am assured that I can meld into the VFR traffic at the field. Seems reasonable to me....

Coming from directly west and landing on 28 and over the field at 5,000....there is no way in hell the controlled expected me to enter a downwind and then turn to the final approach course or else I would have ended up in his C airspace al little over 10 miles away. I was moving at 260 across the ground (indicating 160 mind you) and my I need to cool my plane's turbos so I can't just chop the power and boogie on down, much to my dismay (I pay the bills and regardless, that ain't the way to do it in this plane)....

I do see where I could have cancelled earlier or told the guy about the turn, but since I was already switched I didn't think he cared....so I don't see that I did anything wrong, but in the future I will be better about informing the controller of my plans. How's that?

You were still on an IFR flight plan, just talking on UNICOM

The power shoud be anticipated so that "cuts" do not have to happen. Remember 1" per minute rule?

 

[minitour]

I don't buy the whole "he still had to separate you from IFR traffic" argument.

Once you're given the switch to advisory freq, all radar services are cancelled. Now, he has to separate you with the "one in, one out" rule...so if you're IFR cleared for the (visual) approach, no one goes in or out but you.

Should you have advised "I'll need a 360"? Probably...but I don't think a loss of separation was a problem.

-mini

 

[PC800]

I don't buy the whole "he still had to separate you from IFR traffic" argument.

Once you're given the switch to advisory freq, all radar services are cancelled. Now, he has to separate you with the "one in, one out" rule...so if you're IFR cleared for the (visual) approach, no one goes in or out but you.

Should you have advised "I'll need a 360"? Probably...but I don't think a loss of separation was a problem.

The switch to advisory frequency, and the radar status of the airplane, are not relevant-- ATC must separate all IFR airplanes from all other IFR airplanes, period. This can be accomplished by radar methods and/or non-radar methods and it doesn't matter what frequency they're on. While the one-in, one-out method assures separation from other aircraft using the same uncontrolled airport, the controller must also separate the aircraft from overflights and aircraft using other airports-- those are the airplanes that might be affected by a surprise 360.

When they say "radar services are cancelled", they're referring to safety alerts, traffic advisories, and radar vectoring. If the pilot is not on the frequency, those obviously won't be available-- but radar separation services are still provided, until such time as they're either replaced by non-radar separation services or IFR is cancelled.

Unfortunately, I've had to write up more than one pilot who made a 360 to get down/slow down after being cleared for a slam-dunk visual approach at ORD. You just can't do that without advising ATC-- the 360 not only puts the aircraft in the face of the next aircraft in line, but can also cause the aircraft to lose separation with arrivals and/or departures using other runways. If a loss of separation occurs in such a circumstance, it's either a pilot deviation or an operational error-- and I've never seen one declared an operational error.

 

[THE Flying Ace]

You didn't do anything wrong. If you were over the field at 5000ft, you have to maneuver to make a normal landing. Going into LEX, approach always keeps you high, so when cleared for the visual, we have always turned away from the airport so we can get down and slowed down, then we intercept the final. Approach never says a thing. You probably got either a newbie who does everything by the letter of the law or a guy having a bad day.

 

[twepilot]

There's a huge difference between widening out a little and making a gosh-darned 360. If I'm behind the yahoo that makes a 360, on his own, I'm going to be pissed...Please read the excerpts from the AIM and listen to the ATC specialists on the board and quit effing up so much!

RV

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

shouldn't be doing a 360 on a visual with an IFR clrnce......Thats why he yelled at you. You can ask for it but they expect you to descend and enter the pattern, not spinning in circles IFR, you don't know whos behind you. The controller wasn't out of line at all.