ATC yelled at me today....

[Focus]

This reminds me of a time when I was asked by a controller if I had the 737 ahead in sight which had just been cleared for a visual approach. I told the controller that I did have the 73 in sight and I was then instructed to follow that traffic and I also was cleared for the visual approach. Well, just about the time the controller had finished getting the words out of his mouth, the preceding 73 turned away from the airport going God knows where. The controller went into a whirlwind and reprimanded the 73 for turning away from the airport...I was immeaditely told to maintain my altitude and given a heading away from the 73. Then the controller started to ask the other driver where on Gods Earth was he heading. The conversation went down hill very quickly as my Capt. and I laughed at the final thing we heard come out of the controllers mouth. I quote " I have never in all my life seen a professional pilot turn away from the airport when cleared for a visual" .

It was just too funny. Mind you, we were both about 20 miles away from landing at altitudes not greater than 7000' AGL.

There are many reasons to turn away from an airport, do a 360, or what ever you need...Just let the controllers know what your doing when its appropriate, ie..Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. You did not do anything wrong. You may have communicated better to the controller, but again your not wrong. Controllers have alot more going on then you or me when it comes to keeping things moving in harmony and at times Im sure that pressure builds on them...I know I could never be a controller. Wait a minute, they have retirement pensions dont they? Dont Sweat it !!!

 

[Dumbluck]

firs time i loggeed on fter drinkng, f'em, seriously whip out the johnson and stick'um enough don't lrt anybody screw I MEAN scare u into anything

what's this thread about?

 

[Say Again Over]

You are confusing VISUAL APPROACH and VFR, not the same, here's an example:

"Approach, this is Lear 123, SWA 737 and the airport in sight".

"Roger Lear 123, cleared for the VISUAL approach RW 24R, contact the tower".
Now what do you think would happen if you now decided to do something like a 360?
A VISUAL approach is in conjunction with an IFR clearance.

 

[PC800]

DID I DO SOMETHING WRONG that I don't realize?

Yes. You were cleared for a visual approach, but you were still on an IFR flight plan-- which means the controller was still responsible for providing separation between you and other IFR aircraft. He provides that separation by anticipating where you're going to go-- which should have been direct to the airport-- and handling other aircraft accordingly. That unexpected 360 could have easily resulted in a loss of separation.

If you needed to do a 360, for whatever reason, you should have either canceled IFR first, or requested the 360 from the controller (so he could make any necessary adjustments to other IFR traffic).

 

[dhc8fo]

For those who think I was wrong.....does this change anything because after thinking about it, I don't see where I was "wrong."

...I had already been given the frequency change and was tranmitting on the UNCONTROLLED field's unicom. I hadn't cancelled yet because it is a busy outlying field with lots of traffic and I monitor the approach freq until I am assured that I can meld into the VFR traffic at the field. Seems reasonable to me....

Coming from directly west and landing on 28 and over the field at 5,000....there is no way in hell the controlled expected me to enter a downwind and then turn to the final approach course or else I would have ended up in his C airspace al little over 10 miles away. I was moving at 260 across the ground (indicating 160 mind you) and my I need to cool my plane's turbos so I can't just chop the power and boogie on down, much to my dismay (I pay the bills and regardless, that ain't the way to do it in this plane)....

I do see where I could have cancelled earlier or told the guy about the turn, but since I was already switched I didn't think he cared....so I don't see that I did anything wrong, but in the future I will be better about informing the controller of my plans. How's that?

 

[spudskier]

again, as mentioned and the way I understand it, a visual approach is a straigh-in approach... if you're coming in from any other direction than from straigh on (which the controllers usually vector you for anyway) then make a beeline towards a place that will within one turn, put you on final... anotherwords the shortest route to final approach if not already on the final leg, no 45 to a downwind, go to the airport and land (of course adivse CTAF that you're "x" direction from the airport inbound for a visual runway "x") but this is not standard pattern entry as you would if you were VFR... as I understand it

 

[PC800]

....so I don't see that I did anything wrong...

Your mistake is to believe that, because you've received clearance for a visual approach, "Therefore, can't I do whatever the hell I want??". That's just not the case-- pilot acceptance of a visual approach clearance carries some responsibilities, among them:


"AIM 5-5-11. Visual Approach
a. Pilot.
3. The pilot must, at all times, have either the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight. After being cleared for a visual approach, proceed to the airport in a normal manner or follow the preceding aircraft. Remain clear of clouds while conducting a visual approach."


See the part in red above? You didn't uphold your responsibility to proceed to the airport in a "normal manner"-- you made a 360 instead.

Let's say the controller was working another IFR in the vicinity, and that the controller had vectored that aircraft to passed safely behind yours as you flew direct to the airport. Then, you make an unexpected 360, causing a loss of separation between that aircraft and yours.

Somebody is going to be held responsible for that loss of separation. That somebody will most likely be you.

 

[John2375]

Oh..and ATC yelled at you? It won't be the last time! Just yell back!

I'm sure ATC didn't yell at you...perhaps you mean they admonished you for improper procedure?? I know that sounds more snooty, but people's misuse of the word "yell" drives me crazy - "yell" is to shout, scream - to be admonished for something or told you can't do something whether by ATC or the parking attendant or the grocery clerk or whoever, is not being" yelled at"

 

[ReverseSensing]

I'm sure ATC didn't yell at you...perhaps you mean they admonished you for improper procedure?? I know that sounds more snooty, but people's misuse of the word "yell" drives me crazy - "yell" is to shout, scream - to be admonished for something or told you can't do something whether by ATC or the parking attendant or the grocery clerk or whoever, is not being" yelled at"

You don't have to yell at me!

 

[troy]

...I had already been given the frequency change and was tranmitting on the UNCONTROLLED field's unicom. I hadn't cancelled yet because it is a busy outlying field with lots of traffic and I monitor the approach freq until I am assured that I can meld into the VFR traffic at the field. Seems reasonable to me....

Coming from directly west and landing on 28 and over the field at 5,000....there is no way in hell the controlled expected me to enter a downwind and then turn to the final approach course or else I would have ended up in his C airspace al little over 10 miles away. I was moving at 260 across the ground (indicating 160 mind you) and my I need to cool my plane's turbos so I can't just chop the power and boogie on down, much to my dismay (I pay the bills and regardless, that ain't the way to do it in this plane)....

I do see where I could have cancelled earlier or told the guy about the turn, but since I was already switched I didn't think he cared....so I don't see that I did anything wrong, but in the future I will be better about informing the controller of my plans. How's that?

You were still on an IFR flight plan, just talking on UNICOM

The power shoud be anticipated so that "cuts" do not have to happen. Remember 1" per minute rule?

 

[minitour]

I don't buy the whole "he still had to separate you from IFR traffic" argument.

Once you're given the switch to advisory freq, all radar services are cancelled. Now, he has to separate you with the "one in, one out" rule...so if you're IFR cleared for the (visual) approach, no one goes in or out but you.

Should you have advised "I'll need a 360"? Probably...but I don't think a loss of separation was a problem.

-mini

 

[PC800]

I don't buy the whole "he still had to separate you from IFR traffic" argument.

Once you're given the switch to advisory freq, all radar services are cancelled. Now, he has to separate you with the "one in, one out" rule...so if you're IFR cleared for the (visual) approach, no one goes in or out but you.

Should you have advised "I'll need a 360"? Probably...but I don't think a loss of separation was a problem.

The switch to advisory frequency, and the radar status of the airplane, are not relevant-- ATC must separate all IFR airplanes from all other IFR airplanes, period. This can be accomplished by radar methods and/or non-radar methods and it doesn't matter what frequency they're on. While the one-in, one-out method assures separation from other aircraft using the same uncontrolled airport, the controller must also separate the aircraft from overflights and aircraft using other airports-- those are the airplanes that might be affected by a surprise 360.

When they say "radar services are cancelled", they're referring to safety alerts, traffic advisories, and radar vectoring. If the pilot is not on the frequency, those obviously won't be available-- but radar separation services are still provided, until such time as they're either replaced by non-radar separation services or IFR is cancelled.

Unfortunately, I've had to write up more than one pilot who made a 360 to get down/slow down after being cleared for a slam-dunk visual approach at ORD. You just can't do that without advising ATC-- the 360 not only puts the aircraft in the face of the next aircraft in line, but can also cause the aircraft to lose separation with arrivals and/or departures using other runways. If a loss of separation occurs in such a circumstance, it's either a pilot deviation or an operational error-- and I've never seen one declared an operational error.

 

[THE Flying Ace]

You didn't do anything wrong. If you were over the field at 5000ft, you have to maneuver to make a normal landing. Going into LEX, approach always keeps you high, so when cleared for the visual, we have always turned away from the airport so we can get down and slowed down, then we intercept the final. Approach never says a thing. You probably got either a newbie who does everything by the letter of the law or a guy having a bad day.

 

[twepilot]

There's a huge difference between widening out a little and making a gosh-darned 360. If I'm behind the yahoo that makes a 360, on his own, I'm going to be pissed...Please read the excerpts from the AIM and listen to the ATC specialists on the board and quit effing up so much!

RV

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

shouldn't be doing a 360 on a visual with an IFR clrnce......Thats why he yelled at you. You can ask for it but they expect you to descend and enter the pattern, not spinning in circles IFR, you don't know whos behind you. The controller wasn't out of line at all.