ATC yelled at me today....

[spudskier]

again, as mentioned and the way I understand it, a visual approach is a straigh-in approach... if you're coming in from any other direction than from straigh on (which the controllers usually vector you for anyway) then make a beeline towards a place that will within one turn, put you on final... anotherwords the shortest route to final approach if not already on the final leg, no 45 to a downwind, go to the airport and land (of course adivse CTAF that you're "x" direction from the airport inbound for a visual runway "x") but this is not standard pattern entry as you would if you were VFR... as I understand it

 

[PC800]

....so I don't see that I did anything wrong...

Your mistake is to believe that, because you've received clearance for a visual approach, "Therefore, can't I do whatever the hell I want??". That's just not the case-- pilot acceptance of a visual approach clearance carries some responsibilities, among them:


"AIM 5-5-11. Visual Approach
a. Pilot.
3. The pilot must, at all times, have either the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight. After being cleared for a visual approach, proceed to the airport in a normal manner or follow the preceding aircraft. Remain clear of clouds while conducting a visual approach."


See the part in red above? You didn't uphold your responsibility to proceed to the airport in a "normal manner"-- you made a 360 instead.

Let's say the controller was working another IFR in the vicinity, and that the controller had vectored that aircraft to passed safely behind yours as you flew direct to the airport. Then, you make an unexpected 360, causing a loss of separation between that aircraft and yours.

Somebody is going to be held responsible for that loss of separation. That somebody will most likely be you.

 

[John2375]

Oh..and ATC yelled at you? It won't be the last time! Just yell back!

I'm sure ATC didn't yell at you...perhaps you mean they admonished you for improper procedure?? I know that sounds more snooty, but people's misuse of the word "yell" drives me crazy - "yell" is to shout, scream - to be admonished for something or told you can't do something whether by ATC or the parking attendant or the grocery clerk or whoever, is not being" yelled at"

 

[ReverseSensing]

I'm sure ATC didn't yell at you...perhaps you mean they admonished you for improper procedure?? I know that sounds more snooty, but people's misuse of the word "yell" drives me crazy - "yell" is to shout, scream - to be admonished for something or told you can't do something whether by ATC or the parking attendant or the grocery clerk or whoever, is not being" yelled at"

You don't have to yell at me!

 

[troy]

...I had already been given the frequency change and was tranmitting on the UNCONTROLLED field's unicom. I hadn't cancelled yet because it is a busy outlying field with lots of traffic and I monitor the approach freq until I am assured that I can meld into the VFR traffic at the field. Seems reasonable to me....

Coming from directly west and landing on 28 and over the field at 5,000....there is no way in hell the controlled expected me to enter a downwind and then turn to the final approach course or else I would have ended up in his C airspace al little over 10 miles away. I was moving at 260 across the ground (indicating 160 mind you) and my I need to cool my plane's turbos so I can't just chop the power and boogie on down, much to my dismay (I pay the bills and regardless, that ain't the way to do it in this plane)....

I do see where I could have cancelled earlier or told the guy about the turn, but since I was already switched I didn't think he cared....so I don't see that I did anything wrong, but in the future I will be better about informing the controller of my plans. How's that?

You were still on an IFR flight plan, just talking on UNICOM

The power shoud be anticipated so that "cuts" do not have to happen. Remember 1" per minute rule?

 

[minitour]

I don't buy the whole "he still had to separate you from IFR traffic" argument.

Once you're given the switch to advisory freq, all radar services are cancelled. Now, he has to separate you with the "one in, one out" rule...so if you're IFR cleared for the (visual) approach, no one goes in or out but you.

Should you have advised "I'll need a 360"? Probably...but I don't think a loss of separation was a problem.

-mini

 

[PC800]

I don't buy the whole "he still had to separate you from IFR traffic" argument.

Once you're given the switch to advisory freq, all radar services are cancelled. Now, he has to separate you with the "one in, one out" rule...so if you're IFR cleared for the (visual) approach, no one goes in or out but you.

Should you have advised "I'll need a 360"? Probably...but I don't think a loss of separation was a problem.

The switch to advisory frequency, and the radar status of the airplane, are not relevant-- ATC must separate all IFR airplanes from all other IFR airplanes, period. This can be accomplished by radar methods and/or non-radar methods and it doesn't matter what frequency they're on. While the one-in, one-out method assures separation from other aircraft using the same uncontrolled airport, the controller must also separate the aircraft from overflights and aircraft using other airports-- those are the airplanes that might be affected by a surprise 360.

When they say "radar services are cancelled", they're referring to safety alerts, traffic advisories, and radar vectoring. If the pilot is not on the frequency, those obviously won't be available-- but radar separation services are still provided, until such time as they're either replaced by non-radar separation services or IFR is cancelled.

Unfortunately, I've had to write up more than one pilot who made a 360 to get down/slow down after being cleared for a slam-dunk visual approach at ORD. You just can't do that without advising ATC-- the 360 not only puts the aircraft in the face of the next aircraft in line, but can also cause the aircraft to lose separation with arrivals and/or departures using other runways. If a loss of separation occurs in such a circumstance, it's either a pilot deviation or an operational error-- and I've never seen one declared an operational error.

 

[THE Flying Ace]

You didn't do anything wrong. If you were over the field at 5000ft, you have to maneuver to make a normal landing. Going into LEX, approach always keeps you high, so when cleared for the visual, we have always turned away from the airport so we can get down and slowed down, then we intercept the final. Approach never says a thing. You probably got either a newbie who does everything by the letter of the law or a guy having a bad day.

 

[twepilot]

There's a huge difference between widening out a little and making a gosh-darned 360. If I'm behind the yahoo that makes a 360, on his own, I'm going to be pissed...Please read the excerpts from the AIM and listen to the ATC specialists on the board and quit effing up so much!

RV

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

shouldn't be doing a 360 on a visual with an IFR clrnce......Thats why he yelled at you. You can ask for it but they expect you to descend and enter the pattern, not spinning in circles IFR, you don't know whos behind you. The controller wasn't out of line at all.

 

[OttoPilot]

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere that there was a non-standard pattern at this airport. If it was standard you shouldn't have been making right turns.

 

[FL420]

For those who think I was wrong.....does this change anything because after thinking about it, I don't see where I was "wrong."

Unbelievable!

Coming from directly west and landing on 28 and over the field at 5,000....there is no way in hell the controlled expected me to enter a downwind and then turn to the final approach course or else I would have ended up in his C airspace al little over 10 miles away.

So you're saying, in effect, you can't control your aircraft well enough to complete a traffic pattern without infringing on airspace 10 miles away?

I was moving at 260 across the ground (indicating 160 mind you) and my I need to cool my plane's turbos so I can't just chop the power and boogie on down,

So, you had a 100 knot tailwind at 5000 feet AFE? Exaggerating a bit, are we? Who are you blaming for your being behind the aircraft?

so I don't see that I did anything wrong, but in the future I will be better about informing the controller of my plans. How's that?

If you ever come out of denial, how about hitting the books as you pledged to do in your opening post.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I used to fly into non-towered airports quite often when I flew corporate, and we would overfly the field and enter the downwind on a regular basis. The controller does not clear you for a visual approach to a specific runway if the airport is non towered, they simply clear you for the visual approach. You setup as to enter the traffic pattern for the runway of intended landing.

I would have just overflown the field above TPA and entered a downwind. That is the proper traffic pattern entry when landing at a non-towered airport. Chopping the power and coming straight in is hazardous in regards to other VFR aircraft that may be in the pattern that the controller is not aware of.

 

[iflyabeech]

There was probably someone waiting to take off IFR or being held somewhere behind you. If possible and legal, as a courtesy to others I always cancel IFR, rather than request a visual, when I can in a situation like this, usually when I call the airport in sight. Controllers will usually say thanks and advise you of any traffic in the area. You will make friends with the other pilots also, especially the ones who can't cancel until they get on the ground because of ops spec or manual requirements.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Advisory Circular 90-66A offers guidance in regards to traffic pattern procedures at non-towered airports:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/74c9017c9457e4ab862569d800780551/$FILE/AC90-66A.pdf

As others have said, the controller probably just wanted you get on the ground quickly or cancel IFR.

 

[gkrangers]

LMFAO

-mini

Orlando got uppity with me today.

Orlando: adsfajgjfd;gdgljgjgg radar contact squak 1234 and ident
Orlando: Cessna 12345 did you copy?
Me: You were blocked.
Orlando: No I wasn't...blah blah blah blah...
Me: readsback whatever he said.

I really wanted to say "Yeah, you were."

 

[Lequip]

So I was about 13 minutes from my destination and still at 15,000. When I asked for lower, they descended me to 2,000. I was cleared for the visual at 5,000' over my homefield and so I made a right descending 360 degree turn to enter the 45 at traffic pattern altitude.

I had gotten the frequency change and everything, but I hadn't cancelled yet. I monitor approach when I switch to unicom so I can listen for anything weird and I hear the guy yelling at me that I am flying away from the airport and that my landing clearance is cancelled and I need to fly such-and-such heading..... HUH??? He was being a REAL tool too!

Did I do something wrong? Was I not cleared for a visual (in VMC) and cleared to switch to the unicom? Therefore, can't I do whatever the hell I want??

I switched back and told him to cancel my IFR and basically ignored his rant, but I just gotta know... DID I DO SOMETHING WRONG that I don't realize?

Please put my mind at ease...or tell me I am wrong and I will hit the books.

Ok, so you have 13 minutes to descend from 15000 to 2000. Are your planning skills that piss poor that you have to execute a 360 descending turn. Your failure to properly plan your descent lead to an unsafe maneuver and left your passengers wondering what kind of idiot is flying the airplane. 13 minutes to descend 13000 feet isn't rocket science. You sir or just an idiot and a piss poor pilot to have to resort to an unsafe 360 degree descending traffic pattern entry. Get a clue you amateur.

 

[gkrangers]

And cleared for the visual at 5,000 OVER the airport?

Did you not call the airport in sight further out? Why were you cleared when you were already on top of the airport?

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Ok, so you have 13 minutes to descend from 15000 to 2000. Are your planning skills that piss poor that you have to execute a 360 descending turn. Your failure to properly plan your descent lead to an unsafe maneuver and left your passengers wondering what kind of idiot is flying the airplane. 13 minutes to descend 13000 feet isn't rocket science. You sir or just an idiot and a piss poor pilot to have to resort to an unsafe 360 degree descending traffic pattern entry. Get a clue you amateur.

Take a minute and click on your username and look at all of your previous posts. Right or not, do you really expect for anyone on this site to take you seriously anymore?

 

[SkyBoy1981]

And cleared for the visual at 5,000 OVER the airport?

Did you not call the airport in sight further out? Why were you cleared when you were already on top of the airport?

ATC isn't going to clear you for a visual approach into a non towered airport until you are clear of any potentially conflicting traffic. That includes any other arriving or departing IFR traffic to that airport that either has an approach clearance or has been released for departure. There is more to it than just getting the field in sight.