ATA may sell off passenger ops..found on another site

[RedDogC130]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080130/BUSINESS/801300418



Found on another forum

 

[Auburn MD Flyer]

Interesting development in this time of M & A activity. 12 of 28 a/c are used for passenger flights, per the article. I wonder how SWA would get their passengers to Hawaii? Additionally, would SWA be reimbursed for their "investment" in ATA???

 

[CaptSeth]

I wish Evanoff had used my quotes about scope and fragmentation as well as job protection, but whatever.

Too much uncertainty, and too many possible combinations. We don't even know what to prepare for, exactly, so we are struggling to prepare for any of the potential outcomes.

 

[ATA For Now!]

WN did get reimbursed for their "investment"....they sold it to MaitlinPatterson.

 

[fly4surf]

What would be the going rate for this chunk of business?

 

[atafan]

What would be the going rate for this chunk of business?

Ask Gary Kelly what he's planning to pay for ATA Airlines.

 

[CaptSeth]

There are more than one potential suitors, apparently. In the end, the question will be whether or not SW is willing to let go of Hawaii.

 

[alpine1989]

There are more than one potential suitors, apparently. In the end, the question will be whether or not SW is willing to let go of Hawaii.

Alaska has cash on hand, same fleet type and a desire to grow the Hawaii operation.

Aloha can't pull this off without some serious financial backing.

Good thing ATA has the Dubai cargo thing going for them ???

 

[atafan]

Good thing ATA has the Dubai cargo thing going for them ???

I think what you fail to see is the big picture.

In my opinion, SWA with Matlin Patterson, has been trimming ATA down to the bare necessities so that the airline can be sold off to SWA with minimum liability/cost. SWA gets scheduled worldwide authority much cheaper and with much less liability than buying an Alaska or Aloha. Matlin Patterson gets a chunk of change and all the charter ops goes to World and is sold off at an even larger profit.

SWA will blow everyone away on how masterfully they play this. I might get screwed, again, but I have to appreciate a well played game no matter the results.

and another thing....

Why would Alaska want to be bought by anyone? Alaska is a unique airline and I hope they always stay just the way they are.

 

[HalinTexas]

First, let's clarify a few things.

One, it's a newspaper article. They never get it completely right.

Yes, ATA scheduled service is for sale. We can't get a straight answer as to what that is. We have 12 B737-800's and 10 B757's. Both are used in scheduled service, but not exclusively. You can't make it to HI out of PHX and LAS with a B737 and make money.

ATA does not do exclusive cargo flying, so the A330's will not be on ATA's certificate. They'll probably be spread between World and VarigLog.

Aloha has the money. UAL owns about 20% of the company and Yucaipa Cos. is the airline's backer. They'll get it if they need/want it, and they better do something or Hawaiian (and others) is gonna bury them with their Bus orders. Not to mention all the inter-island competition. (Go Away, Go!)

ATA has a pretty well established reputation in HI. As good or better than HA or AQ. Can't imagine this operation just disappearing, and if WN doesn't want it, then it's their loss. World-wide authority with the B757 and B737 and experienced crews is nothing to sniff at.

According to Mgt. (yeah, I know) SS is for sale, but there are no "takers." No solid rumors as to whom it might be. It took AK 22 mos. to get B737 ETOPS to start their Hawaii service. AQ doesn't have that many planes to dedicate to a codeshare on any large scale. I would be it would be SWA as the buyer, but stranger things have happened.

If SWA wants to grow on any grand scale internationally, on short order, this is the best, cheapest way to do it. If you throw in NAA as part of the deal with their 5 B757's and 5 767's, then it's a formidable operation.

But what do I know.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hal... what are you basing your theory that ATA is better than AQ or HA?

 

[HalinTexas]

Hal... what are you basing your theory that ATA is better than AQ or HA?

Reread my post.

As good or better than HA or AQ.

What I'm told by Hawaiians.

 

[TheJCNIs]

Maybe TPG will buy it and merge it with Midwest!

 

[cantgivenomo]

Aloha may buy ATA??????????????? Wow, that's awesome.

 

[waveflyer]

You can't make it to HI out of PHX and LAS with a B737 and make money.
.

Doesn't Aloha fly to a lot of west coast cities out of HNL (including vegas) w/ the 737? I know virtually nothing about Aloha and how profitable it is or isn't- but i think they do it.

 

[In The Wind]

It would be nice for something good to work out for the ATA guys for once....

 

[HalinTexas]

Doesn't Aloha fly to a lot of west coast cities out of HNL (including vegas) w/ the 737? I know virtually nothing about Aloha and how profitable it is or isn't- but i think they do it.

AQ flies to LAS, but they stop in OAK first.


You can fly the airplane from PHX and LAS, but you are severly performance limited with the B737 trying to get to HI. That's why ATA does it with the B757. Works great.

Let me reiterate. AQ is a fine airline. I have no qualms about how they're run, but he B737 (any series) is a lousy ETOPS airplane. ATA is using it because that's what we've got. He!!, we've got MNPS and N. Atlantic approval now on the B73 and we're taking the d@mn things to Europe and Africa.

 

[Beantown]

My question is IF they sold the scheduled ops, how do you decided which pilots go (scheduled ops) and which stays (cargo/troops)? Do the pilots go with the airplane they currently fly? If this is true and I was senior at ATA I would really be looking in to this to see what side I wan't to be on and bid that airplane.

 

[HalinTexas]

My question is IF they sold the scheduled ops, who do you decided who goes and who stays (Pilots)? Do the pilots go with the airplane they currently fly? If this is true and I was senior at ATA I would really be looking in to this to see what side I wan't to be on and bid that airplane.

The McGaskill/Bond amendment to the Omnibus bill passed in December addresses seniority with a merged/purchased carrier.

ATA has framentation language in it's contract. What triggers it is complicated, but basically it's ruled by the "third." If a third, roughly, of a fleet is sold off, the current and qualified crews go with the airplane. (We have 12 B737s.) Ex: DC10 crewmember would/could not go with the B737's if they go to AQ regardless of his seniority.

 

[MTV]

OK Hal , heres a good one for ya.
What about ATA furloughed guys?

 

[atafan]

What about ATA furloughed guys?

If history is a lesson, I don't expect them to be included. I hope that our union fights for them.

 

[HalinTexas]

OK Hal , heres a good one for ya.
What about ATA furloughed guys?

D@mn good question.

If history is a lesson, I don't expect them to be included. I hope that our union fights for them.

Recent history in particular. We have over 300 pilots furloughed. The first were furloughed 3 years ago. I'm not sure how many really want to come back. They might have to take a paycut at this point. Many were furloughed TWA and USAir. I would submit that most have moved on to greener pastures.

I don't know where they would fit in a seniority list, but they should be recalled first with protected longevity at the least.

 

[In The Wind]

March 14

 

[Freight Dog]

Hal, I didn't mean to jump on you. I heard from pax that the only good thing about ATA's product are the fares, but that they don't like the no-frills idea (paying for snacks, no meals, etc.) Just what I heard... hence the question. I know both us and HA serve free meals in coach.

We started doing a UAL codeshare on all of our flights, so our ETOPS flights all have UAL numbers also (used to be interisland only). I know we have an exclusive codeshare deal with UAL, so I don't know if we'd be able to accept the codeshare with SWA if we acquired ATA. They'd have to modify it, and I hear UAL is a pain in the ass to deal with.

I think combining ATA's trans-Pac fleet with ours would be a great match, though. If you have 12 -800's that would be included in the acquisition, you would see a nice fat pay raise, and phenomenal work rules coming to Aloha.

As for a merger... it would be interesting to say the least. We have captains hired in 2002, while you guys have people on the street hired at the same time.

 

[HalinTexas]

Mgt. just passed on to us that we're losing money on our HI routes even with very high load factors.

I heard from pax that the only good thing about ATA's product are the fares, but that they don't like the no-frills idea (paying for snacks, no meals, etc.)

You get what you pay for!

I don't think AQ is going to be buying ATA's sched. serv. There might be some aircraft coming your way, but who knows. Our mgt. is doing just about everything they can to fly this thing into the ground.

 

[CaptSeth]

If you have 12 -800's that would be included in the acquisition, you would see a nice fat pay raise, and phenomenal work rules coming to Aloha.

Ten dollars per hour? No 401K Matching? That's not "fat."

 

[Whine Lover]

12 year Aloha 737 Capt. guarantee = $160,844

ATA is about $115,200.

Seth,

You might have missed the fact that Aloha has an 80 hour guarantee, AND everybody gets a "base pay" which is $1054/pay period for a 12 year Captain. Thats another $27k a year with 26 pay periods.


I'll take the Aloha pay with no 401k match anyday.

Not to mention the fact that they aren't on the brink of absolute failure....and that, they are managed by something other than Klown College Circus rejects.

YKW

 

[CaptSeth]

airlinepilotpay com is apparently in error, I don't have their info in our current comparison.

In light of our horrendous mgt., anyone that does get to go, if such a transaction took place, would be fortunate.

 

[Freight Dog]

Seth, Seth... easy brother. I'll take my 7% B-plan, plus currently 4% (targeted contribution), but adjusting to 10% in 2010 C-plan any day over 6% 401(k) match. Basically, I'll end up with a 17% defined contribution plan without any 401(k) junk.

Here are some other highlights from our most recent contract:

- Extended Range Override in Nov 08 - FO pay override - $11.24/hour; $12.14/hour in Jan 09. I believe the captain override rate is double that - up to 35 hours.

- Night pay - if your departure airport hits 2AM and you're flying - night pay for the whole trip. FO $4.50 Capt. $5.62/hr. Think about redeyes.

- Holiday Pay - extra 2:45 mins of pay on top of your guarantee or an extra vacation day. Your choice.

- Per Diem in 2008: $3.38/hr (90% OCONUS for Oahu, going to 100% OCONUS Jan 1, 2009). Sim per diem: CONUS rate.

- Company has to pay for one 1st class medical per year. Reimbursement has to be paid in 5 days.

- Commuter policy - OAL: two flights and you can be excused - you can sit reserve on the mainland or rejoin your trip on the mainland to get paid. On AQ: any 2 flights, and if you don't make it for any reason, you get a trip off WITH PAY.

- Foregoing RON accommodations: $50/night - our trips are 2 nights which would mean $100 per trip if you don't use your hotel room. Works great for those who commute and overnight where they live when they're on the trip - comes up to roughly $500-600 extra.

- Our bid guarantee is 80 hours, but we only fly about 60-65 hard block hours per month.

- Reserve is 16 days PERIOD. You can do all 16 days in a stretch. For example, you can do 16 days straight of reserve, followed by 15 off, and then the next month, you can do 15 off and then 16 on. You end up with a month off without burning a single day of vacation or sick leave, and junior pilots can easily hold this schedule. That's 71 hour guarantee.

These are just some little tidbits...

 

[ATA For Now!]

Not so fast!!...

We get $50 for holiday Pay!

And, well, that's it.

Just hope that if a deal does go through, NONE of our mgmt goes with it. As Whine lover stated, a bunch of ASS KLOWNS.

RUINED a perfectly good airline with a great bunch of pilots.