ASTAR'S Race to the Bottom

[EuroWheenie]

Box

I don't think Air Hong Kong (owned 40% by DHL) are in the running to operate the 76s, and they're the only guys around who only operate busses (A300-600F). So, who were you thinking of when you made that statement?

And contrary to what you may think, all costs are indeed being factored in; it's part of the bidding process. Crew costs are but one component, and whilst it is far from the smallest one, it is not the biggest. All bidders were asked to estimate TOTAL costs for operating the 76s, as well as state the transatlantic ETOPS experience of their crews, their familiarity with mx of the Boeing 767/757 fleet, the engines (GE), Cat III ops and everything else you might think of. The people making the decision couldn't really give a flying feck what proportion of the total costs are crew related, they're interested in the bottom line only.

They're not a bunch of amateurs mate; this show is not being run out of the Posttower in Bonn but by some very seasoned aviation guys - the leading figure being a Canadian.

 

[hvydriver]

Of the 3 operators mentioned, who already has 76 or 75's. I know the fatherland does not think of things like start up cost, MX spares, MX training, pilot training, proving runs, CatIII proving runs, on and on. Since they only are concerned with the pennies of paying a crew they will give it to someone who has never seen a Boeing.

Oh, Oh, I know, the company that only has Airbus equipment, they will be the one getting the new 76's.........

I am fed up with these clowns. Who is driving this bus. How did they become the largest shipper in the world, it had to be because no one else wanted to ship to the destinations they were going to and they won by default..........

Does anyone have the number to "Truck Masters" driving school......

Back to burying my head in the corn.......... "there's no place like home," "there's no place like home" (repeat as you rock back and forth):laugh:

The one thing we can all agree on Box, is that the Germans have totally wrecked DHL.

 

[EuroWheenie]

hvy

I'm hardly a big fan of the way DPWN has changed the corporate culture of DHL, nor am I at all convinced they're doing the right things as far as the aviation side of the business is concerned. But your statement is just a tad out of proportion.

I found a rather interesting analsys of DPWN, amongst which I cut this quote:

DPWN has grown its Express business strongly through acquisitions over the past six years, increasing turnover from 4.8 billion in 1999 to 17.2 billion in 2006. The major acquisitions have been DHL, which was completed in 2002 for 1.1 billion (for the 53.6% DPWN did not already own), and Airborne, completed in 2003 for 1 billion.

I shall be the first to admit that I'm not a bean counter, but increasing turnover by 300% can hardly be described as wrecking the company!

Also found this one:

DPWN considers it necessary as a global express company to be able to offer its international clients access to its own US network. In addition, the US market is in terms of revenues the world's largest express market, representing around 25% of the global express market. At the same time, the US express market is very mature compared with the growing markets in Europe and particularly Asia/Pacific, and is dominated by UPS and FedEx, which have a combined market share of nearly 50%.
This makes it a very competitive and difficult environment for other providers such as DHL. In order to reach a critical size and cover the high fixed
costs of maintaining a network, DPWN acquired Airborne in 2003. However, integration problems, combined with weak service performance and low brand awareness, necessitated additional infrastructure investments, which resulted in a cumulative loss of over 1 billion from 2004 to 2006 (of which 434 million were related to an impairment depreciation in 2005) according to Moody´s calculations. The company's original goal of
breaking even in the US in the fourth quarter of 2006 has been now postponed to 2009.

Overall, Moody's expects that, in light of the oligopolistic and mature market structure in the US, it will be difficult for DHL Express to achieve a competitive position even after the integration of Airborne is completed.

 

[hvydriver]

Well Euro, perhaps I should have been more precise. What I should have said is: "The one thing we can all agree on Box, is that the Germans have totally wrecked DHL in the US." Better?

 

[EuroWheenie]

hvy

You know me mate, I'd rather blame ABX for that, a bold statement indeed, but one that is supported by the excerpt from the analysis I posted above.

Integration problems: ABX refusing to play ball
Poor service: Consequence of the above, resulting in customers fleeing to the FedUPS.
Poor brand recognition: Just like DHL is the synonym for Express in many parts of Europe, the same holds true for FedEx and UPS in the states. I have no idea what DPWN has done to raise awareness of the DHL brand in the US, but it stands to reason they haven't done enough.

The decision to purchase Airborne was, to my mind, the right one. But the decision to leave CVG for ILN was, again to my mind, not a wise choice. Working with guys who hold the keys to your success but whom you have little to no control over can only lead to problems.

 

[AV8OR]

Of the 3 operators mentioned, who already has 76 or 75's. I know the fatherland does not think of things like start up cost, MX spares, MX training, pilot training, proving runs, CatIII proving runs, on and on. Since they only are concerned with the pennies of paying a crew they will give it to someone who has never seen a Boeing.

Oh, Oh, I know, the company that only has Airbus equipment, they will be the one getting the new 76's.........

I am fed up with these clowns. Who is driving this bus. How did they become the largest shipper in the world, it had to be because no one else wanted to ship to the destinations they were going to and they won by default..........

Does anyone have the number to "Truck Masters" driving school......

Back to burying my head in the corn.......... "there's no place like home," "there's no place like home" (repeat as you rock back and forth):laugh:

Box,

There's some good q's and A's in your post.

The intel we've gathered during the last week is that the 767's were probably all going to EAT, who, by the way operates 10 or so 757s, but apparently, politics got involved and maybe (who knows) some might go to Luft. Apparently, Daz, for whatever reason, (and he probably doesn't need one other than he's a lying sos), thought he'd use the possibility of 767's coming here, to get another bite at the apple a couple of weeks after the CBA was signed. Unfortunately for the Daz, he has a SVP of Maintenance that likes to drink and run his mouth, and the coup de grace on the issue was that guy getting drunk and unknowingly spilling the beans that those aircraft never were destined for AStar to an AStar pilot....jacka$$.

Also, there's some real truth to your statement that they became the largest shipper by going into markets where they didn't have to compete with anyone else for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, for us all, they arrogantly believed that the same strategy that got them there in the rest of the world, would play just fine in the U.S........they were wrong.

 

[AV8OR]

The decision to purchase Airborne was, to my mind, the right one. But the decision to leave CVG for ILN was, again to my mind, not a wise choice. Working with guys who hold the keys to your success but whom you have little to no control over can only lead to problems

That says it all right there Euro. That's what they did both with ABX as well as the ground delivery portion through firing the DHL drivers and using contractors instead. They had control of the delivery with the delivery drivers and they sold it away instead of growing it. They still have control of AStar, at least emotionaly, because all of us flying their equipment know who we went to work for and why we went to work there. Unfortunately, in spite of this, they have always tended to treat us like the red-headed stepchild of the global DHL network. And, now they have at the helm of AStar a lying, greedy, pos who has ZERO credibility. The reason we do our best at AStar...a. Cause we're professionals. b. Cause we know that to operate any different just makes a bad situation worse. We just wish that once in a while the mothership would show the love in appreciation. Not expecting that anytime soon though.

 

[shooter]

Oh boy, here we go again. uke:

You know me mate, I'd rather blame ABX for that, a bold statement indeed, but one that is supported by the excerpt from the analysis I posted above.

Keep blaming who you want and never accept the fact DHL deserves the responsibility for the problems. But you are thousands of miles away and think you know all the facts since you swigged some brew with another complainer that refuses to accept responsibility. Were you really in the know then you would understand that ABX had forwarded DHL of many of the problems and DHL refused to listen. Sound familiar to what you are seeing over in Leipzig now doesn't it? Whatever Euro, your rose colored glasses seem to have blinders on the sides as well.

Integration problems: ABX refusing to play ball

Not true. Maybe your beer drinking mate needs the facts, that way you would be better informed.

Poor service: Consequence of the above, resulting in customers fleeing to the FedUPS.

That’s it, keep blaming ABX rather than fixing the real problem. That will get all the customers back.

Poor brand recognition: Just like DHL is the synonym for Express in many parts of Europe, the same holds true for FedEx and UPS in the states. I have no idea what DPWN has done to raise awareness of the DHL brand in the US, but it stands to reason they haven't done enough.

Holds some truth. But does not represent the real problems.

The decision to purchase Airborne was, to my mind, the right one. But the decision to leave CVG for ILN was, again to my mind, not a wise choice. Working with guys who hold the keys to your success but whom you have little to no control over can only lead to problems.

You think ABX does anything without DHL making the call then you need a pee test Euro. Keep living in denial along with the other DHL people. It will surely put DHL in a worse position than what they find themselves in. Where did all the Airborne customers go? The ones that stayed with Airborne for over 25 years? Think it was just the name DHL that made them run? So mate, you need a reality check.

 

[shooter]

The decision to purchase Airborne was, to my mind, the right one. But the decision to leave CVG for ILN was, again to my mind, not a wise choice. Working with guys who hold the keys to your success but whom you have little to no control over can only lead to problems

That says it all right there Euro. That's what they did both with ABX as well as the ground delivery portion through firing the DHL drivers and using contractors instead. They had control of the delivery with the delivery drivers and they sold it away instead of growing it. They still have control of AStar, at least emotionaly, because all of us flying their equipment know who we went to work for and why we went to work there. Unfortunately, in spite of this, they have always tended to treat us like the red-headed stepchild of the global DHL network. And, now they have at the helm of AStar a lying, greedy, pos who has ZERO credibility. The reason we do our best at AStar...a. Cause we're professionals. b. Cause we know that to operate any different just makes a bad situation worse. We just wish that once in a while the mothership would show the love in appreciation. Not expecting that anytime soon though.

Are you freaking kidding me AV8OR? You think ABX made ANY of those decisions?

 

[AV8OR]

Are you freaking kidding me AV8OR? You think ABX made ANY of those decisions?

No Shooter, you misunderstand, I lay the blame not at ABX's feet really, but at DHL's. With only a few exceptions, DHL management is the one who makes the final call on the big decisions, i.e moving to ILN, firing the DHL drivers infavor of contractors.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[fob727]

entitlement

Oh, Oh, I know, the company that only has Airbus equipment, they will be the one getting the new 76's.........

I guess ABXA is entitled to these AC. Kind of arrogant.

I wonder why ABXA was not included.

 

[Jurassic Jet]

I'm curious with regards to the decision to move to ILN.

Do ya'll think that the sort facility in CVG could have instantly handled the additional 3.8 million pounds of freight per night that Airborne was moving????? Uh huh...right.

BTW...side note....trivia question. How much is the ILN weight per night now???

Where might we park approximately 117 additional aircraft on the ramp at CVG??? Of course after all the customers were chased away, we no longer need that many airplanes now do we???

But that's OK....those are just minor details. At least CVG never goes Cat II. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[shooter]

Oh, Oh, I know, the company that only has Airbus equipment, they will be the one getting the new 76's.........

I guess ABXA is entitled to these AC. Kind of arrogant.

I wonder why ABXA was not included.

I don't think anyone is saying ABX is entitled to those 767's, they are DHL aircraft bought and paid for. So DHL went to the airlines the own (or 49% owned when it comes to Astar and Polar). I think you may be reading too much into what was said.

 

[shooter]

No Shooter, you misunderstand, I lay the blame not at ABX's feet really, but at DHL's. With only a few exceptions, DHL management is the one who makes the final call on the big decisions, i.e moving to ILN, firing the DHL drivers infavor of contractors.

Sorry for the confusion.

No worries. It just seems many are blaming ABX for decisions that were DHL's to make. I know the states of OH and KY were courting DHL very heavily during that time, but ABX is the whipping boy. Kind of gets old, you know?

 

[fob727]

Where might we park approximately 117 additional aircraft on the ramp at CVG??? Of course after all the customers were chased away, we no longer need that many airplanes now do we???

Construction here...construction there. Moot point now.

JJ, just had to get that dig in, huh? LOL

 

[ABXbooger]

CVG was never really in the running. Ohio came up with a MUCH better package to lure DHL to ILN, and the noise issue would have been serious. Maybe th

 

[mxer]

Also, You have to remember that CVG is basically Delta's toy. It is surrounded by nicer homes (read: noise issues), had high landing fees (vs none when you own ILN), and you have to get permission from the airport board that lives in the nice homes if you want to do the construction in order to make possible for growth. (read: make it easier to wake them up in the middle of the night) Then factor in tax advantages offered from state and county government. DHL purchased the property and they made the call.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

FWIW - let me state that I would not post something that I knew was not true, or did not have some merit of truth. Maybe some of you need to pull your heads out of your backsides and start asking more questions.

One more thing - I have noticed time and again that when someone is guilty of something they have a tendency to jump into "defensive" mode.

FWIW AVIATRIX, You would be the one who needs to start asking more questions prior to posting trash about another airline - trash addressed to "all pilots and union members" and posted on not one but three widely read message boards. And when YOU "get your head out of your backside" you will find that ASTAR pilots are indeed defensive when we are grossly slandered and are guilty of nothing you accused us of.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

After a quick talk with a couple of Lufthansa pilots, it appears that at least 2 of the 767's are headed to AeroLogic. Lufthansa has no 767's and their charter division, Condor, will not be flying freight.

AeroLogic has 11 B777's on order and now, some new 76's...

The only race to the bottom here is DHL & Dasburg's credibility.

They haven'y posted anything about the 76's yet, but this is their link:

http://www.aerologic.aero/web/en/About_us/

 

[EuroWheenie]

Shooter

We've been here before and I really don't fancy having another go at that particular can or worms. Should have known better than to open it, but won't be fishing any further in that pond. Partially because it'll get us nowhere, partially because I'm getting slightly drunk and don't want to ruin my drinking mood.

DC8Driver

Well, we all know how flyboys like to run with half-baked rumours, so here's another one: Before AeroLogic take delivery of any aircraft LCAG will have sold their 50% share to DHL. Either that or have the DLH and LCAG pilots go on strike as they think the flying should belong to them.

I haven't heard anything about AeroLogic getting all or part of the 767s, and it doesn't seem logical to me. But then again, when's the last time anything the postmen did made any sense? My money's still on Polar, much as it hurts. Secondly I'd go for EAT (who operate 12 757s and does maintenance on all 32 aircraft in the DHK/EAT fleets) and thirdly ASTAR. I put Polar first because they'll probably have the sharpest pencils when it comes to putting the bid together, EAT/DHK second because we're already operating the 75 and thus can cross-qualify the crews and engineers and have a large number of guys with ETOPS experience, and ASTAR 3rd because, well, the other guys are 1st and 2nd

As for AeroLogic, that's another disaster waiting to happen. When they started up DHL Air UK they hired a DFO from Britannia, who brought over a lot of his former collegues. Internally, DHL Air UK became known as Britannia Cargo and was operating like a charter company flying the bucket and spade brigade off to Majorca. No concept of night flying, no idea of freight and even less of express freight. It was freaking horrible. New CEO get's hired and immediately kicks out the CP and DFO. Now they're running smoothly.

Fast forward to AeroLogic and what do they do? Yes, hire a DFO from LTU (German charter company) and now internally AeroLogic is known as LTU Cargo. He's hiring loads of LTU pilots, whom I'm sure are nice guys and all that, but they're just repeating the same mistakes as they did with DHL Air. History, it would seem, have taught them nothing!

 

[Box-Hauler]

OK all let me state for the record my post was in jest. I was kidding when I said (tongue in cheek) we should let an all Airbus operator have the new 767. But how far from reality would it be. Look how DHL has screwed the U.S. ops. Not going to get into the whole ABX / Astar argument but before the Germans both of us were better off. They have driven away customers. Ignored advice on startups. The only smart move was moving to ILN due to the fact that DHL was the red headed stepchild of the CVG airport. See previous post by MXer. Short of the good decision to come to the cornfield they have screwed up most everything else on the air side. The new hub starting up overnight without a test run, brilliant idea. I bet that guy got a promotion. Not having the vision to re fleet Astar with fuel efficient A/C, brilliant. Taking paid for DC9 and parking them and then through stooping a 727 two or three times, brilliant.

As I said before the jist of my earlier post was supposed to be in fun, but Euro is wound a little too tight. I mean no offense but lets do get you over here and get some beer into you, maybe even a nice corn fed local girl to take your mind off of things for a while........:beer:

 

[aviatrix767]

FWIW AVIATRIX, You would be the one who needs to start asking more questions prior to posting trash about another airline - trash addressed to "all pilots and union members" and posted on not one but three widely read message boards. And when YOU "get your head out of your backside" you will find that ASTAR pilots are indeed defensive when we are grossly slandered and are guilty of nothing you accused us of.

I've gotten several emails that you had an "emergency" meeting the other night to take a vote on whether to continue down the path of reduced pay for aircraft. My understanding is that it was voted down. But just the fact , alone, that you were voting on such a proposal confirms my original post.

 

[EuroWheenie]

No it fcuking doesn't Aviatrix. It means that management put a proposal on the table and the guys on the coal face rejected it. That has nothing at all to do with the jest of your post, namely that ASTAR guys were willing to take a pay-cut to operate some shiny new metal.

The industry would like to thank you, especially if you crawled back to the hole you came from and stayed there for a while. Like eternity.

 

[rotor&wing]

I've gotten several emails that you had an "emergency" meeting the other night to take a vote on whether to continue down the path of reduced pay for aircraft. My understanding is that it was voted down. But just the fact , alone, that you were voting on such a proposal confirms my original post.

Look Aviatrix, whoever is "giving" you this information is f*&ked up. There was no "emergency" meeting to take a "vote". Sorry, just didn't happen. Our MEC at a regular meeting showed the pilot group what was proposed and rejected by our MEC.

Go find some Midol and get over it.

 

[Chubaka]

Aviatrix, your source is giving you incorrect information. It is simply not true. Check it out. Yes, we had a union meeting is all that is correct.

 

[AV8OR]

I've gotten several emails that you had an "emergency" meeting the other night to take a vote on whether to continue down the path of reduced pay for aircraft. My understanding is that it was voted down. But just the fact , alone, that you were voting on such a proposal confirms my original post.

Trix, you are just ill informed. Like the man said, we had a meeting the other night, (by the way we also discussed flight pay loss issues for our MEC reps, THAT was an actual discussion!), our our MEC BRIEFED the pilot group on what the company proposed and what OUR MEC REJECTED! What, did one of the Elks Lodge serving staff brief you? THAT is what happened. End of story. But you got on at least three different message boards, didn't ask us any questions, and went was of half cocked with rumor and conjecture as though it was FACT.

Truth is darlin, you owe us a friggin apology.

 

[Chubaka]

I just wanted to add that your information sounds like a rumor started by a mechanic, or some other employee. I personally never believe anything those guys say. They overhear something in bits and pieces and then they fill in the rest to make a entertaining story. They have to much free time on their hands. I would reevaluate the source, whoever it is.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

I've gotten several emails that you had an "emergency" meeting the other night to take a vote on whether to continue down the path of reduced pay for aircraft. My understanding is that it was voted down. But just the fact , alone, that you were voting on such a proposal confirms my original post.

AVIATRIX

That's three strikes: YOU'RE OUT.

You're out of your mind if you think that anyone will ever believe any of your posts again.
You're out of excuses for posting inflammatory and slanderous remarks.
You're out of credible sources - the next time you post ANYTHING you'd better be damn sure you know what you are talking about.
You're out of time for issuing an apology

 

[DC8CRIVER]

EURO

Interesting intel about AeroLogic. What I found important was that DLH has no 767’s. My first instinct was that the 76’s were going to DHL UK – if not, then perhaps to EAT or Polar. I never thought we were in the running (even though Astar obviously needs to be refleeted). DHL UK and EAT both fly 757’s so that was my logic for their award and Polar has pretty low pay scales so, I thought, maybe them.

Polar is or will soon be in negotiations and if they have the 74-400’s AND the 76’s they will be in a VERY strong position for a major pay increase. I hope they stand strong and get an outstanding contract. Anyway it’s all speculation about the 76’s which makes for interesting reading but doesn’t get anyone any closer to more airplanes.

All I know is (contrary to some of the erroneous posts you see around here) Astar ain’t getting them. We’re supposed to get some two man airplanes as stipulated in our new CBA (it says “737 or larger), but so far Dasburg has produced squat he’ll probably default on that as well.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

...All I know is (contrary to some of the erroneous posts you see around here) Astar ain’t getting them. ...

Hey I know!!! Let's ask Trix!!!!! Hey Trix, any of your peeps send you any emails that said where the ER's are going. I mean hey, you seem to be dead nuts on top of everything else that's happening around here. This should be a no brainier for ya.

FAJ