Aspen Slope 2% ???

[LJ45]

This is not true. I have a very good friend who on takeoff in a Citation 500 left most of the turbine section of one of the engines on the runway a few years back.

Before or after V1?

 

[Lead Sled]

This is a cut of a draft of AC 120-OBS-11. Looks like the fed's are trying to clear up this matter. I don't know if this has been relased as an AC. I highlighted some of the pertinent language.

TERPS CRITERIA VS. ENGINE-OUT REQUIREMENTS:

Standard Instrument Departures (SIDS) or departure procedures (DPs) based on U.S. Standards for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPS) or ICAO Pans-Ops are based on normal (all-engine) operations. Thus, engine-out obstacle clearance requirements and the all-engine TERPS requirements are independent. Engine-out procedures do not need to meet TERPS requirements. Further, compliance with TERPS climb gradient requirements do not necessarily assure that engine-out obstacle clearance requirements are met. Terminal instrument procedures typically use specified all-engine climb gradients to an altitude, rather than certified engine-out airplane performance. Terminal instrument procedures typically assume a climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile (nm) unless a greater gradient is specified. For the purposes of analyzing performance on procedures developed under TERPS or Pans-Ops, it is understood that any gradient requirement, specified or unspecified, will be treated as a plane which must not be penetrated from above until reaching the stated height, rather than as a gradient which must be exceeded at all points in the path. Operators must comply with FAR requirements for the development of takeoff performance data and procedures. There are differences between TERPS and engine-out criteria, including the lateral and vertical obstacle clearance requirements. An engine failure during takeoff is a non-normal condition, and therefore, takes precedence over noise abatement, air traffic, SID’s, DPs, and other normal operating considerations.

Prpjt...
Thank you. I was getting tired of typing.

The simpliest way I could probably state it is: The aircraft certification requirements will only get you to 1500' while clearing any obstacles. That's basically pattern altitude and if you've got a problem at that point you come back and land. Above 1500' and you're flying a DP and all gradients are based on "normal" (all engine) climb performance. If you can't make that then you have to have an "out". In our case, we had Jeppesen provide us with an "escape" or alternate procedure that we can fly that will keep our nose out of the dirt.

Don't feel bad if you misuderstood this. It's been misunderstood ever since Wilbur tried explaining it or Orvil, who coincidently, got it wrong. I know that I was taught wrong at FlightSafety and every other school for 20 years. It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I sat down with someone who really knew and understood it and was able to pound it into my thick skull.

A couple of months ago at our 6-month recurrent our FlightSafety instructor once again started to explain it wrong. We had an interesting discussion and he wasn't buying any of it. There happened to be, in our class, one of their part-time instructors who also happens to be a prominant aviation attorney and aviation magazine contributor. He was finally able to set the performance instructor straight.

If I was an FAA inspector and I wanted to wreak a little havoc with the Aspen pilot pool, I wouldn't worry too much about guys on take off. Where I would want to talk to them is right after landing. I would be most interested in knowing their landing weight verses their Approach Climb capabilitiy from the appropriate Approach Climb chart out of the flight manual. Watch out, it can be very restrictive.

Perhaps Kingairrick had it right when he said that perhaps this thread ought to be moved to the "Legal, but stupid" thread. However, it's important that we understand this stuff. You 121 guys have it easy - you've got folks to figure this stuff out for you. You 135 and us 01 guys have to fend for ourselves. In the past, how many of us have postponed or canceled flights that would otherwise have been completely legal? I know that I have. Airports like Aspen should be respected not feared. Like I said in an earlier post - it has to be very VFR before we either go into or fly out of Aspen. We're very fortunate, the boss has a ranch in Grand Junction and it's no big deal if we can't do ASE for whatever reason.

'Sled

 

[SabreFlyR]

Before or after V1?

After V1. Flew it around the pattern and landed.
The manufactures do not know everything that happens to their aircraft. The only way for them to know is if the operator tells them. In this particular case the engine was removed sent to the overhaul shop and reinstalled. Over the years I've heard some real bs from these guys.

 

[LJ45]

After V1. Flew it around the pattern and landed.
The manufactures do not know everything that happens to their aircraft. The only way for them to know is if the operator tells them. In this particular case the engine was removed sent to the overhaul shop and reinstalled. Over the years I've heard some real bs from these guys.

Thanks for the info, I thought it sounded like propaganda!

 

[bigD]

A couple of things:

1) This is a really, really good thread. Especially for someone like me still down at the bottom working my way up. Even if the topic doesn't directly apply to me, I've learned an amazing amount regardless.

2) You guys are friggin' nerds! Especially you Lead Sled!

 

[Lead Sled]

A couple of things:

1) This is a really, really good thread. Especially for someone like me still down at the bottom working my way up. Even if the topic doesn't directly apply to me, I've learned an amazing amount regardless.

2) You guys are friggin' nerds! Especially you Lead Sled!

Have you been talking to my wife?

'Sled

 

[HMR]

2) You guys are friggin' nerds! Especially you Lead Sled!

Oh man, if you only knew... Sled's like a celebrity at FSI.

I've sat next to him at recurrent. Any question the instructor can't answer gets thrown to 'Sled. He just sits there until called upon. I've yet to see him get stumped. The guy could build an Astra or Lear Jet out of old beer cans with a butter knife. I think I'd be better off just giving him 15 grand and sitting in his living room for an evening. Plus I'd get some of his wife's amazing cooking. That alone would be worth the $$$.

And yes, I was at his last performance class where this whole single-engine TERPS stuff came up... again. I think I saw the instructor burning the FSI syllabus after class.

Now don't get me started on his co-captain. Although the guy looks like Brad Pitt and flies like Bob Hoover, he's about as sharp as a water balloon.

 

[English]

Ah! Now it is all clear! HMR and Lead Sled...who would have thought....

 

[prpjt]

With all of this talk of FS;..... Sled ? YOU wouldn't have the initials R.B. would you? Just wondering. Your take on this subjuct is very familiar.

And English, how's the 4 treating you? No hijack intended.

 

[English]

The 4 is great and fun. I'm down to only washing it once a week now

 

[FracCapt]

The 4 is great and fun. I'm down to only washing it once a week now

Only once a week?!?! What kind of driver are you?! You need to have your BMW taken away and issued a Gremlin!

 

[English]

I know I know..I feel so unworthy!

 

[bigD]

Only once a week?!?! What kind of driver are you?! You need to have your BMW taken away and issued a Gremlin!

Tell you what - since I'm such a nice guy, I'll take the car off of English's hands while she learns the error of her ways!

 

[English]

Sorry...after my husband crashed my beloved Celica, no men's hands will touch my new baby!

 

[English]

However...seeing as bigD DID just upgrade to a bigger aircraft, maybe I'll give him a chance.

Like to go fast bigD?