Aspen Slope 2% ???

[Lead Sled]

Visited the infamous ASE today for the first time. I have to say I'm disgusted at how this place is interpreted by pilots - we have so much conflicting info. on this airport and very little guidance from the Feds. I think this airport and others like it need an AC with specific instructions to stay out of the danger zone.

1. Holding short, Lear 30 Series decides to cancel IFR and depart VFR only to pick up their IFR after departure - huh? why? (they are not sure about the legality of things here, that's why)

2. Holdig short, G-III blasts off and tower says start the right turn. The pilots come back baffeled, "uh, can you give us that heading?" TOWER: "it's on the departure procedure sir, start the right turn." They obviously never even glanced at it before taking the runway. WTFO - another reason I'll never put my family on a chartered airplane.

3. It's our turn, my partner wants to depart VFR and pick up our IFR in the air (135 operation). Alright - I'm along for the ride. Nevermind we planned a TO 200+ lbs lighter at 6 degrees cooler. I knew the plane could do it - but this is sloppy to me. Not to mention that he had no idea what the departure procedure was until I walked him through it as we flew it. Poor. It's called a briefing and I have yet to see even a half-arsed one in this charter-land / 91 free-for-all land.

We need guidance on this airport. It's only a matter of time before another crew puts one in the dirt at ASE because of confusion on legality, performance, or procedures. We are being set up for failure. Heck - the story above of the FS guy teaching it wrong - if that doesn't say it, what does? Sure was pretty though, and the approach is FUN!

You think that was bad? Just wait until the ski season is in full swing and you're holding in position on 33 and there are two airplanes on final for 15.

The next time you fly in there make sure the guy sitting next to you reads the departure. The trick is to listen up and be predictable - the controllers are real good at what they do. Things can get all balled up when pilots don't pay attention. Blasting out of there VFR or cancelling your IFR approaching Red Table leaves everyone wondering just what you're going to do next. Operating out of Aspen can be a real challenge. A "professional" attitude and approach goes a long way there.

It's our turn, my partner wants to depart VFR and pick up our IFR in the air (135 operation). Alright - I'm along for the ride. Nevermind we planned a TO 200+ lbs lighter at 6 degrees cooler. I knew the plane could do it - but this is sloppy to me. Not to mention that he had no idea what the departure procedure was until I walked him through it as we flew it. Poor. It's called a briefing and I have yet to see even a half-arsed one in this charter-land / 91 free-for-all land.

AZ Typed, don't take this wrong, but don't let the guy sitting next to you kill you - you'll live a lot longer that way.

'Sled

 

[been-there]

You have an opinion from FAA Legal stating that you have to be able to make the climb gradients listed in a departure procedure (TERPs) with an engine out?

This is an excerpt from the 8400.10, FAA Inspectors Handbook, Volume 4, Ch 3:


"(2) The criteria for TERPS does not take into account whether or not the aircraft is operating on all engines. Operators must either show compliance with TERPS criteria with an engine out or have an alternate routing available for use in case of an engine failure…."

 

[LJ45]

This is an excerpt from the 8400.10, FAA Inspectors Handbook, Volume 4, Ch 3:


"(2) The criteria for TERPS does not take into account whether or not the aircraft is operating on all engines. Operators must either show compliance with TERPS criteria with an engine out or have an alternate routing available for use in case of an engine failure…."

So how do you do this in a caravan or a PC12?

 

[Lead Sled]

This is an excerpt from the 8400.10, FAA Inspectors Handbook, Volume 4, Ch 3:

"(2) The criteria for TERPS does not take into account whether or not the aircraft is operating on all engines. Operators must either show compliance with TERPS criteria with an engine out or have an alternate routing available for use in case of an engine failure…."

As Prpjt posted a few days ago, there is a draft Advisory Circular (AC 120-OBS-11) that pertains. I've cut and pasted it from his post:

TERPS CRITERIA VS. ENGINE-OUT REQUIREMENTS:

Standard Instrument Departures (SIDS) or departure procedures (DPs) based on U.S. Standards for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPS) or ICAO Pans-Ops are based on normal (all-engine) operations. Thus, engine-out obstacle clearance requirements and the all-engine TERPS requirements are independent. Engine-out procedures do not need to meet TERPS requirements. Further, compliance with TERPS climb gradient requirements do not necessarily assure that engine-out obstacle clearance requirements are met. Terminal instrument procedures typically use specified all-engine climb gradients to an altitude, rather than certified engine-out airplane performance. Terminal instrument procedures typically assume a climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile (nm) unless a greater gradient is specified. For the purposes of analyzing performance on procedures developed under TERPS or Pans-Ops, it is understood that any gradient requirement, specified or unspecified, will be treated as a plane which must not be penetrated from above until reaching the stated height, rather than as a gradient which must be exceeded at all points in the path. Operators must comply with FAR requirements for the development of takeoff performance data and procedures. There are differences between TERPS and engine-out criteria, including the lateral and vertical obstacle clearance requirements. An engine failure during takeoff is a non-normal condition, and therefore, takes precedence over noise abatement, air traffic, SID’s, DPs, and other normal operating considerations.

You guys who haven't done should get a hold of the folks at Jeppesen Ops Data. The cost is pretty reasonable - something like $22 per runway per configuration (ie flap setting, etc). The procedure that you will receive is not “one size fits all” – it is airplane specific and even specifies the bank angle. The procedure for our airplane even varies according V2. It’s a complicated emergency maneuver but it will allow you to take the airplane to a safe place in mountainous terrain.

As far as how to best employ it? It depends upon your particular set up. We have it loaded and waiting on FMS #2. If there's a problem we simply have to select it as the nav source for the guy in the left seat. The transition from the DP to the escape maneuver is direct and seamless. During a normal departure we simply cross-fill the flight plan data from #1 back to #2 after we’re out of the terminal area and drive on. You need to carefully brief the various actions in the event of an engine failure. The co-pilot’s going to be pretty busy and both guys need to make sure that the navigation is being sourced from the proper FMS once you turn off of the Lindz 4. Remember, at that point it’s an “honest to gosh” emergency and no one’s going to question your actions as you turn out and fly Jeppesen’s alternate procedure – that’s what you’ve got it for. It sure beats sticking your nose in the dirt.

'Sled

 

[CarjCapt]

Wow

Lead Sled:

When we (regional airline) started to fly to the mountains of Mexico, Colorado, Utah and Nevada (not with standing DPs out of ROA) we got specific training for and charts for escape manuvers if we had a engine failure at or shortly after V1.

Wish we had dual FMSs to do what you discribed but alas we didn't and it was very busy during Ck rides for the non flying pilot.

Don't know where we got the charts (I suspect Jepessen) but they were very specific as to bank, turns and procedures.

As someone who is looking for 91/135 work I'll be interested in operations that use all available resourses to make mountain flying as safe as possible.

CarjCapt

 

[been-there]

From the draft AC

Operators must comply with FAR requirements for the development of takeoff performance data and procedures.

I still stand by the requirement to either meet the climb gradients with an engine inop, have an escape procedure, or be able to see and avoid the obstacles.

 

[johnny taliban]

So help a FNG 135 fella out and put it in practical language:


1. can you depart IFR in VMC without getting nailed by the Feds if you cannot meet the climb gradient (I think the answer is no based on this post)

2. under 135 you must meet the climb gradient under all conditions (I think the answer is yes, again based on this discussion)

3. if you cannot meet the climb gradient, no matter what the wx, you must lighten the fuel load (to meet the gradient) and get gas somewhere, correct? (I think the answer is yes)

4. the whole second segment climb gradient as a % is new to me. I have always been taught the get a rate of climb out of the aircraft based on groundspeed. In the 121 world it was done for us. Now in the 135 world I'm tossed into the % concept. How do you determine the % second segment climb for the airport? Rise over Run? Can you give an example at say, ASE? FS did a terrible job covering this and I knew one day I'd be heading to ASE.

Thanks for the help!

AZT

So,
can anyone answer these questions? Im headed there this week and would like to do this right.

Thanks

 

[furlough-boy]

So,
can anyone answer these questions? Im headed there this week and would like to do this right.

Thanks

1. yes
2. no
3. no
4. required percentage is required rate (in feet per mile) divided by 6080.

 

[LegacyDriver]

The Legacy is +2% / - 2% FWIW.


Now, to show my ignorance... What is a single engine climb gradient based upon when certified? Is it based upon reaching acceleration altitude at V2, then accelerating or is it based on something else? (I believe it is the standard acceleration alt to VFS thing, but now you have me confused.)

Our approved engine-out procedure now is to hold V2 until a safe altitude is reached, period. It seems to me it makew our effective single-engine climb gradient STEEPER than the standard method. With all the power available in modern jets, acceleration segments seem a bit outdated. Am I wrong?

Again, sorry to sound like an ignoramous, but I am trying to phrase this as best I can...

 

[LegacyDriver]

I am also effectively a Part 135 noob, but will address this as I understand it (and now believe is wrong):

So help a FNG 135 fella out and put it in practical language:


1. can you depart IFR in VMC without getting nailed by the Feds if you cannot meet the climb gradient (I think the answer is no based on this post)

Yes you can depart and not meet the 3.3 degree single-engine gradient requirement under 135 if you have a visual escape plan (or an approved escape procedure for the airport).

2. under 135 you must meet the climb gradient under all conditions (I think the answer is yes, again based on this discussion)

No. Only under Part 135 in IMC conditions at an airport without an approved instrument escape procedure. Under VFR a visual escape allows you to sidestep the 3.3% requirement.

3. if you cannot meet the climb gradient, no matter what the wx, you must lighten the fuel load (to meet the gradient) and get gas somewhere, correct? (I think the answer is yes)

You must only meet the gradient under IFR when a certified IFR escape procedure does not exist.

4. the whole second segment climb gradient as a % is new to me. I have always been taught the get a rate of climb out of the aircraft based on groundspeed. In the 121 world it was done for us. Now in the 135 world I'm tossed into the % concept. How do you determine the % second segment climb for the airport? Rise over Run? Can you give an example at say, ASE? FS did a terrible job covering this and I knew one day I'd be heading to ASE.

We determine it from (I BELIEVE) 35 feet above the end of the runway to safe altitude at V2.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't we required to meet the 3.3% gradient at all times (unless a steeper gradient is required), even Part 91, unless we have a visual or charted escape path? This is all based upon NET CLIMB GRADIENT data...