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ASA's Cloudy Future

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Ganja60Heavy said:
You are a big loser.
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Look in the mirror buddy. That is a big L you have on your forehead. Go smoke some more Ganja.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
goahead said:
WTF, are you in 1st grade........
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Hey, it was a great response to a Ganja smoking Loser. Are you in 1st grade?


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General,
I don't want a cut of anything at ASA. And I am willing to strike for that as well. However you must remember, if we take any cuts to make our CASM yard sale cheaper, we and others like us become financially more attractive to your "Outsourcing"
 
General Lee said:
Classic. Read your own post. IT will be a factor, chief. Start preparing. Scope is HUGE and we won't budge. We have atleast 51% that would vote NO on any increase in size of RJ for DCI. But, you know differently.......I am glad you do.



Bye Bye--General Lee
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General,

I think it is unfortunate that we are all in this position. ASA is being backed into a corner just like Delta...although I willfully admit that you are in a much worse position than we are, seeing as how if mgmt gets what they want from you, it will be 45% cuts since 2002...terrible no doubt.

Mgmt is asking us for a cut too, not because skywest can't afford to pay us (over 80mil in profit for the 4th qtr 2005 alone), but because they don't have to as long as Skywest pilots will do it for less than us...lets face it, all other things being equal they are cheaper on the 70.

Getting back to what i was going to say....Do you really think that the bankruptcy courts will allow a strike? I mean, if it goes to that, the company is not going to take it to that point without knowing that it would be stopped. Furthermore, how many pilots, if the strike is haulted, would be willing to outright walk? I don't think that many considering all they would stand to lose. Just a thought, but i don't think that you guys have as much power as you think that you do, just like we don't have that much power either.
 
EV120 said:
General,
I don't want a cut of anything at ASA. And I am willing to strike for that as well. However you must remember, if we take any cuts to make our CASM yard sale cheaper, we and others like us become financially more attractive to your "Outsourcing"
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Do you think that mgmt is going to let it go to a strike here at ASA. NO WAY!! No, what will happen is actually quite simple. They will get out of us what they can on the 70...and if we don't come down in overall costs(which is not just solely relying on pilot costs but that is a huge part of it), they will take the 70's and put them where they are cheaper. Either way, they will give before a strike.

Our best bet is to shoot for an increase in 50 pay (which would give the majority of pilots a raise) along with trip rigs and profit sharing. This would benifit most of the pilots. If we take a small drop in 70 pay, we could offset it with profit sharing and rigs...in addition, work rules are a must.

THEN, we need to put HUGE HUGE efforts into improving good relations with the Skywest pilots to prevent this whipsaw in the future. If we can stick together, then we will get paid what we are worth, and not what they can squeeze out of us.
 
FL990 said:
Mgmt is asking us for a cut too, not because skywest can't afford to pay us (over 80mil in profit for the 4th qtr 2005 alone), but because they don't have to as long as Skywest pilots will do it for less than us...lets face it, all other things being equal they are cheaper on the 70.
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And you are cheaper on the 50....................It cuts both ways. Let's say it together......


WHIPSAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


AF :cool:
 
We don't need to take a small drop in 70 pay. When you take a small drop they come back for another. If the 70 rate at ASA is too big to get more growth then I guess Skywest can have them.

Also the 50 is on the way out. They want you to vote for a lower 70 seat rate so that when they get the OK to replace the 50's with 70's they get the lower rate. Don't think that if you are on the 50 at this time a decreae in the 70 rate won't hit you in the future.
 
FL990 said:
Our best bet is to shoot for an increase in 50 pay (which would give the majority of pilots a raise) along with trip rigs and profit sharing. This would benifit most of the pilots. If we take a small drop in 70 pay, we could offset it with profit sharing and rigs...in addition, work rules are a must.
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The problem with that idea is that the 50 is a dead airplane. They aren't making any more. Any growth worth speaking of will be in 70 seaters (or above). That is why they want to cut 70 seat rates.

And the reason that ASA's 70 seat costs are so high is that they figure in the cost of all the IPs since almost all IPs for the company are on the 70 seat pay rate. No wonder we look high if we factor in the cost of training the entire company! I got that from TZ.
 
The 70 seat rate we have is either competitive or it is not. If it isn't, then why do we have 35 70s? Even before Delta was in BK, they still wanted the cheapest feed.

A small increase in pay means very little in the grand scheme of things. Our MX costs on the 700 are higher than SkyWest, yet you don't see the company asking our mechanics to take a pay cut. It's just a ploy to make us think we're overpaid and it's working on some of you.

If we get, say 17 more airplanes, what happens to our costs on the 700? I'd bet my next paycheck that they won't go up. I'm just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if the reason that SkyWest supposedly has lower 70-seat costs is because they have more airplanes than us (and therefore more new pilots)... things that make you go hmmmm...
 
Not only is it whipsaw within the same group, we would still be buying the growth. Pilots do not buy the airplanes for them with wages

Here is an idea...get out of the lease at the GO in ATL and lease some cheap storefront office space in College Park. That would bring down the overhead.

And while you are at it, get rid of ALL of the full time help. If every one is part time, they pay no O/T and no insurance.

Quit agreeing to Walmart the industry folks.
 
All i am saying is what good does a super 70 pay rate do us if there are no 70's to fly. I am NOT an advocate of what the company is doing. What most of you are saying is correct, but business is business. And from a business standpoint, if skywest is cheaper on the 70, they will get them.

Like i did say before, there is more that goes into the cost equation than just pilot costs...logistics will play a part in this as well. But if they are cheaper, they will get the aircraft. And those of you who say that the 50 is gone, NOT correct. We have lots of 50's. Yes , they aren't making any more, but that doesn't mean it will be gone in 4 or 5 years. I do understand that most of the growth is with the 70...and obviously this is why they are focusing on this in the pay scale...but we will most likely get some of the CAL flying..as will other carriers, and so there may be some growth on this plane.

I just don't think that it is a good idea to fight for something that if we get, will most likely go away anyway.

Keep in mind, we could still get an EFFECTIVE raise with profit sharing and duty rigs...BOTH ARE A MUST THOUGH...we have to have the duty rigs too. I am so tired of the inefficiencies of our schedule.

Then, once the contract is done, we must put all our efforts into building relations with each other (skywest and ASA)...stop the whipsaw and you will get what we are worth.
 
ALSO, I would like to add that I AM NOT suggesting that we undercut skywest...I am simply suggesting that if the costs are even, then the aircraft will be spread out evenly among the 2 companies...I believe that this is better for everyone as it will aid in building good relations among the two companies as apposed to creating competition and animosity between us.
 
EV120 said:
Not only is it whipsaw within the same group, we would still be buying the growth. Pilots do not buy the airplanes for them with wages

Here is an idea...get out of the lease at the GO in ATL and lease some cheap storefront office space in College Park. That would bring down the overhead.

And while you are at it, get rid of ALL of the full time help. If every one is part time, they pay no O/T and no insurance.

Quit agreeing to Walmart the industry folks.
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Agreed. Every time I choke down a Wendy's in 6 minutes, busting my azz to get the flight out on-time, I should think about the catered lunches, the marble floors, and the maple furniture at the G.O. that is inhabited by our managers for about 35 hrs/week.
 
EV120 said:
General,
I don't want a cut of anything at ASA. And I am willing to strike for that as well. However you must remember, if we take any cuts to make our CASM yard sale cheaper, we and others like us become financially more attractive to your "Outsourcing"
Click to expand...

It is funny you talk about CASM. In the beginning of our 1113c trial the company stated they needed us, the pilots, to help hit a target CASM. Well guess what? We have now hit that target, and the company has changed their talk to block hours instead of CASM. You can do whatever you want to try to lower the CASM, and then they will change the subject to something else.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
FL990,

Why do you want the CAL flying?

Any further 50-seat growth will come at the direct expense of some other regional. I'm not sure I want a piece of that, even if it does benefit me.

Also, while SkyWest may be cheaper on the 700, how much do you think it would cost for them to set up a crew base in ATL? That's where the airplanes will be needed.
 
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goahead said:
WILL YOU PLEASE STFU AND GET ON THE MAJORS BOARD
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Are you a moderator? Sounds like IFLY4FOOD. Hey, I can give an opinion on ANY board I want. If you don't like it, then IGNORE me, please. Really.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Ganja60Heavy said:
Agreed. Every time I choke down a Wendy's in 6 minutes, busting my azz to get the flight out on-time, I should think about the catered lunches, the marble floors, and the maple furniture at the G.O. that is inhabited by our managers for about 35 hrs/week.
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Yeah and they think about your 12-18 days off a month and the ability to come to work, fly your trips and go home and not have to think about work anymore while they are on twenty four hour call and putting in 50- 60 hours a week working and wondering on the drive in and on the drive home how best to run the company so that 6000 employees who depend on their management performance for their jobs can still pay their mortgages 5 years down the road.

Its not all about you / us. We make up only 1800 of the 6000 employees - we are a minority in this business but you wouldn't know it from our egos.
 
Firehoser said:
Yeah and they think about your 12-18 days off a month and the ability to come to work, fly your trips and go home and not have to think about work anymore while they are on twenty four hour call and putting in 50- 60 hours a week working and wondering on the drive in and on the drive home how best to run the company so that 6000 employees who depend on their management performance for their jobs can still pay their mortgages 5 years down the road.

Its not all about you / us. We make up only 1800 of the 6000 employees - we are a minority in this business but you wouldn't know it from our egos.
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Well said. I'm always amazed at the selfishness of some of the captains I fly with. Most are great, but a few (I think they are over represented here) just can't think beyond themselves.
 
FL990 said:
General,

I think it is unfortunate that we are all in this position. ASA is being backed into a corner just like Delta...although I willfully admit that you are in a much worse position than we are, seeing as how if mgmt gets what they want from you, it will be 45% cuts since 2002...terrible no doubt.

FL990; you have posted some thoughtful comments. What is missing though is an appreciation for the market - we no longer indirectly determine the value of our services - the customer does through their purchasing decisions. If they are not willing to pay a ticket price that will produce the profits necessary to enable the company to remain competitive and allow them to pay us a lucrative salary, then the company faces two choices - control costs, remain competitive, or die a painful death as you slowly lose market share to the competition.

You can shout, scream, posture, and threaten all you want to, you can go on strike and extort pay increases out of the company but it will not change this basic dynamic. If you do strike and get what you want, enjoy it while you can because someone else, with new aircraft, operational and maintenence guarantees and a lower payscale is always waiting to take your business. Even if the new airline adopted your exact payscale, differences in pay seniority alone would enable them to undercut you. It is not a diabolical management scheme, nor is it some grand conspiracy - its just the way it is - business. The same thing happens in every other business environment that is not government regulated. The airlines (read airline employees including unionized employees) who figure out how to compete and thrive in a post-deregulated world will be the ones who are around in 20 years.

Isn't about time we ended this cycle of repeating history every ten years or so post-deregulation? Isn't it about time we tried a different approach? The airlines who will prosper in the future will be the airlines whose employees understand the market forces in play - who understand that the bull in the china shop is the customer and that it is the customer who is in the driver's seat - no longer can organized labor dictate the wage market. The airlines who prosper in the future will have unions who cooperate to improve profitability, control costs and negotiate creative contracts that ensure that the unions will enjoy any increases in profitability due to these efforts - not force wage increases in ignorance of the company's ability to afford those increases during the down business cycles.

The good news is that this last down cycle may be the worst, that the market is probably experiencing its final shakeout and if we are educated enough, enlightened enough, savvy enough, we just might survive to see 2016.
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What Union?

The airlines who prosper in the future will have unions who cooperate to improve profitability, control costs and negotiate creative contracts that ensure that the unions will enjoy any increases in profitability due to these efforts - not force wage increases in ignorance of the company's ability to afford those increases during the down business cycles.


Well that pretty much throws ALPA out of the picture. They are too busy trying to manipulate the industry for the chosen few. Who would be the best union to take the lead on this one. :confused:
 
Have to agree...

I just have to agree about the whole "someone will be wating to take your business" comment...

Look at ExpressJet. Magangement says, "Okay, we'll sign your new contract. And by the way, now you are too expensive, so 25% of your flying is going up for bid - and if you don't get your costs down, we'll give out some more"

That's pretty easy to watch and learn from, don't you think?
 
FL990 said:
ALSO, I would like to add that I AM NOT suggesting that we undercut skywest...I am simply suggesting that if the costs are even, then the aircraft will be spread out evenly among the 2 companies...I believe that this is better for everyone as it will aid in building good relations among the two companies as apposed to creating competition and animosity between us.
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This is what management would have you beleive. The fact is that $5-10/hour in operating cost for a transport category jet is negligible. It certainly won't dictate were the jets go when the costs are fixed. It is the fact that we are in negotiations and that this is one of the easiest costs to attack that they are shifting jets around, especially when they are giving hundreds of thousands to a legal firm to tell them what too say.
 
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General,

Tell em (management) to go screw themselves! We are.

Take a look:

U.S. Airline Unit Revenues Jump, Domestic RASM 'Off The Charts' By Steven Lott/Aviation Daily 03/22/2006 09:11:28 AM
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The U.S. airlines reported a sharp 14.9% jump in February mainline systemwide unit revenues thanks to strong domestic results, which analysts predict will continue for several months.
The Air Transport Association unit revenue data is based on information from seven major carriers. Including regional affiliates, RASM soared 17.3%. Domestically, the gain in passenger unit revenue was "off the charts," said Merrill Lynch analyst Michael Linenberg. Mainline domestic unit revenue increased 18.7% as yield improved 12.2% and load factor increased 4.3 points to 78%. The domestic RASM jump is the greatest in about 15 years, Linenberg said.
Internationally, "unit revenue performance continues to be solid," he said. Pacific unit revenues led all regions, rising 8.7% thanks to higher yields and loads; however, as we move through 2006, "we expect year-over-year comparisons for international unit revenue to become more difficult."
Because the Easter and Passover holidays shifted to April this year, March RASM gains are expected to "decelerate from February's torrid pace," said JP Morgan analyst Jamie Baker, with most carriers predicting March gains will rival those of January. Looking further ahead, Linenberg expects unit revenue gains to be very strong for at least the next few quarters.

They will never admit they dont really need more. But hey baby, watch the black ink after they get it. This is more about Union-Contract busting than anything else at this point.

End Rant...
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