ASA/XJT update

[Oakum_Boy]

perhaps, but mgmt isn't going to let us cherry pick from each. Personally, I think we're better off not negotiating anything right now. Just my feelin

 

[www.]

So Eagle is in bankruptcy and just voted in a concessionary contract. PNCL is in bankruptcy and is working out there concessionary contract. We bid against the likes of Mesa and Gojets for flying and we are supposed to be holding out for an "industry leading" contract???? I'm all for getting what I can but it's hard to raise the bar when everyone else is going the other way. Sign a 3 year deal and let's start negotiating in 2 years when hopefully the economy is better and lots of movement is taking place and hopefully we have
More leverage.

That was suggested 2 years ago.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Seems like the last decade has been nothing but signed contracts in hopes of the industry/economy turning around.

 

[amcnd]

Well said Joe. I hear the XJT side is losing about 100k per month, where as the ASA side makes profit.

This cannot be sustained. Take the ASA contract, add 3%, give a little here, take a little there, clean up the language, and keep PBS. We are the best regional in the industry. Let's not price ourselves into a Comair/Pinnacle!

Well said! As a SkyWest pilot i don't want to get caught in the middle of this.. It won't be much longer tell "Inc" says enough is enough, and moves to plan "B".. What ever that may be...?? But im guessing it would hurt all 3 groups..

 

[rjacobs]

So Eagle is in bankruptcy and just voted in a concessionary contract. PNCL is in bankruptcy and is working out there concessionary contract.

I think you need to educate yourself on why those two companies are in BK before spouting off about them.

AE didnt cause their BK situation with any kind of contract that they had. The whole AA BK is a sham to get out of paying the AA pilots pensions that are 10 billion under funded. The AE guys simply ended up as casualties of war. Their concessionary contract isnt even that bad, they didnt take much of a haircut from what I remember reading.

PNCL is in BK because they bought a company(Colgan) that had underbid contracts to get flying and those contracts were not sustainable. They themselves also had a contract from prior to buying Colgan that was a money loser, but they were subsidizing it on the rest of their flying. Then MGMT signed a contract with the pilots and agreed to the SLI that allowed a TON of guys to go to training on different a/c which incurred a ton of costs(that DAL promised to pay, but not for 2 years or something like that) that werent "planned" for.

In either case, neither pilot groups contract with the company(maybe with PNCL it did, but thats managements dumb ass fault for signing something without understanding what could happen) caused them to go into BK. ********************ty business decisions(pncl) or outright wanting to renege on a completely different work groups pensions at a completely different company(AA) caused them to go into BK.


Trying to use those two companies being in BK as an excuse for us to not fight for the best contract possible is a very weak and reaching argument and I dont buy it.

 

[JustaNumber]

Trying to use those two companies being in BK as an excuse for us to not fight for the best contract possible is a very weak and reaching argument and I dont buy it.

I could be wrong but I think he was trying to say that it's hard enough to compete against Mesa and GoJets, and now we're also going up against two concessionary contracts at bankrupt carriers. Fighting for the best contract possible could be suicide.

 

[rjacobs]

I could be wrong but I think he was trying to say that it's hard enough to compete against Mesa and GoJets, and now we're also going up against two concessionary contracts at bankrupt carriers. Fighting for the best contract possible could be suicide.

Maybe you are right. I took it as he was suggesting that if we got a great contract we might just go into BK and have that great contract voided. Or that management will be less likely to want to give us a great contract because everybody else's contracts we are being "compared" against have taken big hits in BK.

I believe we have done very well against Mesa and GoJets so I really dont know if I see them as a threat. GoJets got what, 22 airplanes for DAL, so far the CRJ side has gotten 32(?) aircraft for DAL with possibly more in the works plus transitioning 12 A/C to AA. GoJets got zero AA flying and so far has gotten no more DAL or UAL flying. While Mesa has gotten no new flying and has actually LOST United and USAir flying to both the ERJ side and SKW.

Im not worried about Mesa and GoJets. According to Wiki Mesa has 63 airplanes and GoJets has 47 so 110 combined. We have closing in on 750 A/C between all 3 companies(again according to Wiki). So taken individually they each have less than 1/10 of our total fleet count. Economy of scale, which is the new game, is in our favor in the future. Every airplane brought on to the SKW fleet brings the overall cost down just slightly for every other A/C.

I dont think either of those companies will ever be a huge force in the industry going forward. Gojets mainly because their management team(TSA holdings in general) is so ********************ed up they can barely run day to day operations let alone figure out how to greatly expand. Mesa, because, well, its Mesa.

 

[JumpersAway]

It doesn't matter who's concessionary contract was induced by what...........we all (at the regional level) are forced to compete against it. The cheapest bidder, to a point, wins. The lower the employee compensation, the cheaper the block hour costs that are passed to mainline carriers, and hense, the growth in their flying. The ONLY thing we have going for us is the lack of pilots in the pool. A Pinnicle liquidation could completely change this, as thousands of pilots hit the streets.

The 5000k signing bonus for newhires only further illustrates the point of cost control. The managements at Eagle and RAH could simply up the overall pay and attract "tallent". However, they're using it as a bandaid fix.

I want a contract that reflects my contribution to my company. However, the current economic times do not dictate what I feel the majority of the LXJT folks want. We're looking at a whole new ballgame here, not one from years past and the hay day of the regional industry where LXJT raised the bar. I hate to say it, but the glory days of regional flying are long gone. This is now going to be a survival of the fittest scenario, and I want SkyWest to be the fittest of them all.

 

[ASADriver]

I think you need to educate yourself on why those two companies are in BK before spouting off about them.

AE didnt cause their BK situation with any kind of contract that they had. The whole AA BK is a sham to get out of paying the AA pilots pensions that are 10 billion under funded. The AE guys simply ended up as casualties of war. Their concessionary contract isnt even that bad, they didnt take much of a haircut from what I remember reading.

PNCL is in BK because they bought a company(Colgan) that had underbid contracts to get flying and those contracts were not sustainable. They themselves also had a contract from prior to buying Colgan that was a money loser, but they were subsidizing it on the rest of their flying. Then MGMT signed a contract with the pilots and agreed to the SLI that allowed a TON of guys to go to training on different a/c which incurred a ton of costs(that DAL promised to pay, but not for 2 years or something like that) that werent "planned" for.

In either case, neither pilot groups contract with the company(maybe with PNCL it did, but thats managements dumb ass fault for signing something without understanding what could happen) caused them to go into BK. ********************ty business decisions(pncl) or outright wanting to renege on a completely different work groups pensions at a completely different company(AA) caused them to go into BK.


Trying to use those two companies being in BK as an excuse for us to not fight for the best contract possible is a very weak and reaching argument and I dont buy it.

Doesn't matter why they are in BK. Now we have to compete with them. Add Republic, Mesa, and Gojets, and it becomes pretty obvious that we are already at the top of the pile.

 

[ASAFOE120]

I think you need to educate yourself on why those two companies are in BK before spouting off about them.

AE didnt cause their BK situation with any kind of contract that they had. The whole AA BK is a sham to get out of paying the AA pilots pensions that are 10 billion under funded. The AE guys simply ended up as casualties of war. Their concessionary contract isnt even that bad, they didnt take much of a haircut from what I remember reading.

PNCL is in BK because they bought a company(Colgan) that had underbid contracts to get flying and those contracts were not sustainable. They themselves also had a contract from prior to buying Colgan that was a money loser, but they were subsidizing it on the rest of their flying. Then MGMT signed a contract with the pilots and agreed to the SLI that allowed a TON of guys to go to training on different a/c which incurred a ton of costs(that DAL promised to pay, but not for 2 years or something like that) that werent "planned" for.

In either case, neither pilot groups contract with the company(maybe with PNCL it did, but thats managements dumb ass fault for signing something without understanding what could happen) caused them to go into BK. ********************ty business decisions(pncl) or outright wanting to renege on a completely different work groups pensions at a completely different company(AA) caused them to go into BK.


Trying to use those two companies being in BK as an excuse for us to not fight for the best contract possible is a very weak and reaching argument and I dont buy it.

Preciate the condescending lecture but I've been in this business a long time and know darn well why AE and PNCL are in bankruptcy. And I don't believe that we will ever be in bankruptcy because of a contract that we sign. Jerry will pick up his toys and go home long before it gets to that point.

His next move will be to shrink the money losing/uncooperative side of his business. (Dont say that cant happen beacuse we saw it at ASA during the contract '08 negotiations when 700's were transferred to SKYW resulting in downgrades and displacements). The surviving entity will continue to make Jerry money while the pilots left without a job scramble to start over somewhere else.

So the point of my previous post is that now is NOT the time to be shooting for the moon with this contract. We need a contract that will be just good enough to get us by for 3 years. Negotiations would start again in 2 short years. Hopefully by then somebody has raised the bar past us. I mean dang fellas, how many of us plan to be here that long anyhow???? I mean come on. Really? Why do I need a huge improvement when I'll most likely be gone in a year? 1.5 years?

Just my $.02. (but why do I bother? Nobody ever changes there mind around here).

 

[dojetdriver]

Amazing how well the fear tactics work. Your signature says "3rd generation airline pilot". You'd think that one would know this is just an endless cycle, ask generation 1 and 2.

I hate to say it, but the glory days of regional flying are long gone. This is now going to be a survival of the fittest scenario, and I want SkyWest to be the fittest of them all.

When the ******************** was there EVER a "glory days or regional flying"? It was simply a matter of working at a place that doesn't suck as bad as the others.

 

[Clutch]

Preciate the condescending lecture but I've been in this business a long time and know darn well why AE and PNCL are in bankruptcy. And I don't believe that we will ever be in bankruptcy because of a contract that we sign. Jerry will pick up his toys and go home long before it gets to that point.

His next move will be to shrink the money losing/uncooperative side of his business. (Dont say that cant happen beacuse we saw it at ASA during the contract '08 negotiations when 700's were transferred to SKYW resulting in downgrades and displacements). The surviving entity will continue to make Jerry money while the pilots left without a job scramble to start over somewhere else.

So the point of my previous post is that now is NOT the time to be shooting for the moon with this contract. We need a contract that will be just good enough to get us by for 3 years. Negotiations would start again in 2 short years. Hopefully by then somebody has raised the bar past us. I mean dang fellas, how many of us plan to be here that long anyhow???? I mean come on. Really? Why do I need a huge improvement when I'll most likely be gone in a year? 1.5 years?

Just my $.02. (but why do I bother? Nobody ever changes there mind around here).

Contract negotiations '08?

 

[ASAFOE120]

Last round of negotiations for current contract.

 

[blesko]

ASA rocks. I want an AceyPalooza ticket! Go Atlanta! woo!!!!!!
Who needs a contract when I'm getting a free turkey?
Gimme a ride in a Mini Indy car, don't worry about Painmaker!
Roll my day off, then don't restore it, it's ok.
Thank you, may I have another?
I love surveys that don't apply to flight crews, but to the people in the cubicles...
We're getting iPads tomorrow! AeroData in da house!
Take away my Business travel insurance, I won't notice!
Oooh look, a shiny pin!
Surely, a jet. Are you Sure? Raise your hands if you're Sure!

Geesus.....well done sir

 

[Clutch]

Last round of negotiations for current contract.

The one signed in '07?

 

[JumpersAway]

Amazing how well the fear tactics work. Your signature says "3rd generation airline pilot". You'd think that one would know this is just an endless cycle, ask generation 1 and 2.



When the ******************** was there EVER a "glory days or regional flying"? It was simply a matter of working at a place that doesn't suck as bad as the others.

Fear tactics????? I'm not living in fear- I couldn't give a damn, honestly. I'm not scared at all, but I am smart. There is a difference between strategy and charging blindly out of the trenches, all the while yelling "bonsai"! Why is the concept of regional flying so difficult for you to understand? We're already at the top of the pyramid at this level- what exactly is it you're looking for, beyond that?

Ask generation 1 and 2 about what, exactly? I don't need to ask squat- I've lived through more in this industry than you know. Strikes, furloughs, displacements, bankruptcies. Though not the one in the cockpit durring this, I was in the family that lived through it and dealt with it all. Economics are economics, and you are trying to reinvent the wheel with idealistic fantasy.

The glory days of the regional airline industry would equal wide profit margins which yielded lots of room for pay increases and the contract you fantasize about (circa 2000-2005). Glory days consist of a time where every regional was growing and wasn't concerned with "cost competitiveness" in order to grow at the expense of another regional airline, or it's pilots.

One of the greatest components of strength is being intelligent and wise. From where I sit, and from what I see, the means to what you want/wish for just doesn't exist in this environment.

We all want more pay and better QOL, but it ain't gonna happn here, so leave when you can- I am.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Well said Joe. I hear the XJT side is losing about 100k per month, where as the ASA side makes profit

um, you hear wrong. Dead wrong.

 

[dojetdriver]

I've lived through more in this industry than you know.

As have I.

Strikes

Been there, done that/got to walk a picket line in my lifetime. Also got to watch my dad go on strike at a legacy in the 80's

furloughs, displacements, bankruptcies. Though not the one in the cockpit durring this, I was in the family that lived through it and dealt with it all.

Been there, done that also. However I WAS the one in the cockpit when all that happened. Multiple base closures, upgraded, downgraded, displaced, CH11, furloughed, and getting to start all over at the bottom again somewhere else. Upgraded, downgraded, getting to upgrade for a THIRD time, etc.

We all want more pay and better QOL, but it ain't gonna happn here, so leave when you can- I am.

Wow, so am I. Ain't that some sh1t?

Sorry, but you're experience/perspective ISN'T as unique as you think it is.

 

[JumpersAway]

As have I.



Been there, done that/got to walk a picket line in my lifetime. Also got to watch my dad go on strike at a legacy in the 80's



Been there, done that also. However I WAS the one in the cockpit when all that happened. Multiple base closures, upgraded, downgraded, displaced, CH11, furloughed, and getting to start all over at the bottom again somewhere else. Upgraded, downgraded, getting to upgrade for a THIRD time, etc.



Wow, so am I. Ain't that some sh1t?

Sorry, but you're experience/perspective ISN'T as unique as you think it is.

And you're not the only one that's ever paid dues- so quit waiving your finger in everyone's face like you're the airline dynamo.

 

[dojetdriver]

And you're not the only one that's ever paid dues- so quit waiving your finger in everyone's face like you're the airline dynamo.

OK, quit waving your finger in everyone's face while claiming glory on the experience of generation 1 and 2.