ASA/XJT update

[Nevets]

i dont think anyone is asking you to fly the erj for 60k. I can bet you had the legacy XJT taken the PBS that ASA already has and an overwhelming majority of pilots are happy with, this deal would have been done a year or more ago.

and there is NO WAY a regional pilot made 300k. thats total crap

Do you think the company would have gone for that, pay raises to make up for your PBS, and include everything else we have in our contract? Would you go for that? I know the company didn't want to.

 

[www.]

i dont think anyone is asking you to fly the erj for 60k. I can bet you had the legacy XJT taken the PBS that ASA already has and an overwhelming majority of pilots are happy with, this deal would have been done a year or more ago.

and there is NO WAY a regional pilot made 300k. thats total crap

I heard it was upward of 200k and it was IPs. Wasn't former XE MEC Chairman caught doing something like this?

 

[rjacobs]

i remember quite of few guys hired a while ago that got here( ASA) only to learn they were going to the ERJ. Nobody at ASA had a problem with it because we thought it gave the company some flexibilty and it didnt really cost us anything in negotiations. At the time we were hearing furloughs at ASA... and guess what, we still didnt hold some new hire hostage, especially when using them as leverage doesnt gain either side and just comes out as unreasonable. but hey, you guys do what you need to do.

So you are ok with taking a guy who has been on property now for 6 months(our most junior new hires are from May 2012) and sending them over to the ASA side to start fresh on the bottom? Would you be ok if it were the other way?

What happens if we give in and management gets their way and starts moving pilots all over the place back to year one pay and all the sudden you have 5k pilots on year 1 pay(I know its extreme, but it shows what COULD happen once the cats out of the bag)?

By allowing this these guys NEVER get anywhere and simply are used as pawns in the game. So we are using them as pawns to keep them here and get them onto 2nd year pay instead of letting them waste 6+ months over here just to furlough them and send them to the ASA side where they can spend another year on 1st year pay. What happens when those guys suddenly get close to year 2 pay on the ASA side? Furloughed again just to go back to the ERJ side?

I dont think so. Ill fight for that not to happen to those guys.

ITS A ********************ING WHIPSAW without a contract and SLI being done.

I just dont understand why you guys dont see it as any other thing.


GET THE DEAL DONE. Ive been saying this the whole time including when the ASA side was potentially going to lose a bunch of airframes. Guess who put off negotiations? It wasnt our or your union, it was management.


When DAL signed their new contact and you guys were potentially going to lose a ton of air frames you all wanted to hurry up and get the deal done to protect your guys(and throw us under the bus). Now that the shoe is on the other foot and we are potentially(although I highly doubt it) going to lose some airframes its OK to furlough our guys and bring them over there as an end run around finishing the deal and getting SLI, you guys are some how ok with NOT getting the deal done and doing everything legally.

Our union is doing what they are supposed to: protect our pilots. If your union allowed some funny business to go on with new hires or furlough's or what not, thats not my problem.

 

[rjacobs]

I heard it was upward of 200k and it was IPs. Wasn't former XE MEC Chairman caught doing something like this?

yup and what he did was found to not be so good and he resigned(even before the investigation was started or finished). However for some reason he hasnt been made to pay back the 85K bucks he STOLE from us. That was an ALPA national decision and not a local decision by the way(from what I remember from the emails).

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Nevermind. Not my problem.

 

[enuffalready]

So you are ok with taking a guy who has been on property now for 6 months(our most junior new hires are from May 2012) and sending them over to the ASA side to start fresh on the bottom? Would you be ok if it were the other way?

What happens if we give in and management gets their way and starts moving pilots all over the place back to year one pay and all the sudden you have 5k pilots on year 1 pay(I know its extreme, but it shows what COULD happen once the cats out of the bag)?

By allowing this these guys NEVER get anywhere and simply are used as pawns in the game. So we are using them as pawns to keep them here and get them onto 2nd year pay instead of letting them waste 6+ months over here just to furlough them and send them to the ASA side where they can spend another year on 1st year pay. What happens when those guys suddenly get close to year 2 pay on the ASA side? Furloughed again just to go back to the ERJ side?

I dont think so. Ill fight for that not to happen to those guys.

.

think logically. if a guy has been on property for 6 months, he is still on first year pay and at bottom of list for either place. I cant imagine the company would say he has to give up his seniority longevity( 6 months) because it would be almost exactly the same and provide no value to the company. They are receiving additional CRJ airframes and need pilots for those, I am quite certain they are just asking for someone to slide over to staff the frames. the pilot sliding over is at the bottom, loses no seniority. They have to "ask" because we are still separate lists. but if you guys dont want to let them, then so be it. you run it how you want to run it.

as far as 2nd year, etc. I dont know whether you realize it or not but it very expensive to train, train again, then train again the same pilot. That pilot is on the payroll and not really working. It would serve zero purpose for a company to move them back and forth for the sake of doing it. but if pilots lists are separate and we get an order for flying for 40 ERJ's and all we have is a bunch of CRJ on the ASA side those crews have to come from somewhere.

 

[rjacobs]

think logically. if a guy has been on property for 6 months, he is still on first year pay and at bottom of list for either place. I cant imagine the company would say he has to give up his seniority longevity( 6 months) because it would be almost exactly the same and provide no value to the company. They are receiving additional CRJ airframes and need pilots for those, I am quite certain they are just asking for someone to slide over to staff the frames. the pilot sliding over is at the bottom, loses no seniority. They have to "ask" because we are still separate lists. but if you guys dont want to let them, then so be it. you run it how you want to run it.

as far as 2nd year, etc. I dont know whether you realize it or not but it very expensive to train, train again, then train again the same pilot. That pilot is on the payroll and not really working. It would serve zero purpose for a company to move them back and forth for the sake of doing it. but if pilots lists are separate and we get an order for flying for 40 ERJ's and all we have is a bunch of CRJ on the ASA side those crews have to come from somewhere.

I agree the guy will be on 1st year pay whichever side he is on, but I wouldnt bet on the company allowing those guys to bring 6+ months longevity over.

The main thing is that we have a TON of guys that would willingly go over to the CRJ side to be based in DTW or ATL or IAD(even if it meant sitting reserve), but they arent able to while the junior guys who would be forced to do it.

The problem isnt a lack of warm bodies since we have guys that would willingly go over there(I can think of 10 off the top of my head that would go to either ATL, DTW, or IAD in a HEARTBEAT), the problem is doing this as an end run around finishing the contract and getting an SLI.

Its also a huge disruption to guys lives to be just pushed around wherever the company wants them. There are also contractual provisions in our contract that pay those guys moving expenses if they are displaced and have to move to their new base. If they are "furloughed" those provisions dont apply.

 

[enuffalready]

I agree the guy will be on 1st year pay whichever side he is on, but I wouldnt bet on the company allowing those guys to bring 6+ months longevity over.

The main thing is that we have a TON of guys that would willingly go over to the CRJ side to be based in DTW or ATL or IAD(even if it meant sitting reserve), but they arent able to while the junior guys who would be forced to do it.

The problem isnt a lack of warm bodies since we have guys that would willingly go over there(I can think of 10 off the top of my head that would go to either ATL, DTW, or IAD in a HEARTBEAT), the problem is doing this as an end run around finishing the contract and getting an SLI.

Its also a huge disruption to guys lives to be just pushed around wherever the company wants them. There are also contractual provisions in our contract that pay those guys moving expenses if they are displaced and have to move to their new base. If they are "furloughed" those provisions dont apply.

there is a huge difference between taking guys mid seniority and moving them to DFW. That opens a pandoras box and certainly not what they are asking. they will get the pilots somehwere. if the LXJT guys think this is a good fight to fight then ok... I just dont see it as it doesnt benefit anyone. You gotta pick your battles and this aint one i would fight. but thats just my opinion. i think this small little thing is more indicative of the battle between LXJT and management and it looks like its starting to get ugly.
.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This was one reason why our illustrious ex MEC chair was ousted. He was willing to roll over to whatever their demands where and when the rest of the union found out what was REALLY going on, they were pissed.

Company is trying the furlough and bring em over to ASA as an end run around actually FINISHING THE ********************ING MERGER and the union told them that. They said if you want to move people around FINISH NEGOTIATING and get an SLI done and be free to move people wherever you want.

This contract could be done in a week if the company decided they wanted to play ball. So dont go blaming us. I am not privy to what is being said at the table or what our "demands" are, but I have a hard time believing WE are the ones stalling negotiations. It aint you guys either, its the company. They can do what they want, but they choose to play the game same as we are playing the game.

If we furlough and shrink and what not, so what, I am not giving in to managements demands as an end run around FINISHING WHAT THEY STARTED. If they didnt want us merged, why buy us in the first place...

I find it amusing to watch a bunch of twenty somethings try and teach everyone about negotiating with Jerry....I know you guys have it all figured out in your vast years of negotiating, but I wouldn't count Jerry out just yet...:laugh:

 

[JoeMerchant]

I never said I, nor the union, are expecting anything crazy from this contract. I personally am not a 50% raise with 8 weeks vacation, no PBS, etc... guy. I do expect reasonable gains in all areas(of my contract) since I am not interested in a concessionary contract in any way.

The United and American pilots "expected" more also...Doesn't mean you get it.

There is a big difference between "reasonable gains in all areas of your contract" and not taking concessions. One is attainable, one is not....I guess you guys will have to figure out which one is attainable

 

[JoeMerchant]

I honestly think it just simply comes down to the XJT pilots not wanting to take any other concession in a new contract. I've got plan B. I suggest everyone have one. That is where the leverage comes from.

That's good advice...Jerry has a Plan B, C, and probably D....I doubt any of the ones after Plan A involve the legacy XJT folks....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well stated, Nevjets, Plan B is a must.

JoeM, I just cannot see the common sense in us taking concessions with Eagle and Republic offering $5000 signing bonuses (2 year contract) to find qualified candidates. Times are changing and our 50 seaters are gone, regardless. We are not overpaid on the ERJ side. I have no idea who this supposed pilot is that broke $300K. In the 6+ years as a captain, and working pretty hard, I have never seen 90K+.

Any concessionary contract, for the LXJT side, will find very little, if any, support.

Nobody is asking your side for concessions, unless you count PBS. However demanding much more than you currently have, and/or demanding no PBS is going to result in this continuing to drag out with your side suffering the consequences.

 

[rjacobs]

there is a huge difference between taking guys mid seniority and moving them to DFW. That opens a pandoras box and certainly not what they are asking. they will get the pilots somehwere. if the LXJT guys think this is a good fight to fight then ok... I just dont see it as it doesnt benefit anyone. You gotta pick your battles and this aint one i would fight. but thats just my opinion. i think this small little thing is more indicative of the battle between LXJT and management and it looks like its starting to get ugly.
.

IM not suggesting taking mid seniority guys and moving them around, just saying if an SLI was done there are guys on the ERJ side that would willingly move to the CRJ side to take those slots. And your point was moving 1st year guys was cost neutral, well so would moving a more senior guy if that guy volunteers to go.

 

[LHRCrewDog]

Nobody is asking your side for concessions, unless you count PBS. However demanding much more than you currently have, and/or demanding no PBS is going to result in this continuing to drag out with your side suffering the consequences.

I thought LASA came to the table with the ASA contract +4%, of course, with PBS, loss of work rules and soft time. Pretty big give back there.

And yes, Joe, of course we consider PBS a concession. How can you put that conditional statement, "unless you count PBS" as a concession? How long have you been around, seriously...

I think you, or someone else, are generalizing a lot of our pilot group into something they are not. Not sure if it was you who stated that 300K bs statement, but completely wrong. I do not know what our negotiating committee is asking for, but that should be for them to know. If you are privy to some info, you probably should not be posting it on this forum. It is probably not true and it will do no good to bring it up on an anonymous forum. I do not know how you can generalize all of our pilot group based on being "in the know" of our negotiating committees.

I guess I do not come on here very often, but seeing some of the crap posted in this thread just makes me think that you are just creating a rift between our pilot groups. But then again, I am not one of those cool "in the know" guys like you, Joe.

 

[rjacobs]

I find it amusing to watch a bunch of twenty somethings try and teach everyone about negotiating with Jerry....I know you guys have it all figured out in your vast years of negotiating, but I wouldn't count Jerry out just yet...:laugh:

And it took you guys what 6 years to get your current contract that isnt even that great of a contract(arguably worse than ours that was signed in 2004). Yup, looks like you guys are the ones to ask on how to negotiate with Inc.

The United and American pilots "expected" more also...Doesn't mean you get it.

There is a big difference between "reasonable gains in all areas of your contract" and not taking concessions. One is attainable, one is not....I guess you guys will have to figure out which one is attainable

The UAL have yet to vote on the turd that was laid in front of them. AA is in BK and so far is still working under their old contract since not much of the 1113c contract has been forced on them, yet.

What you are saying is that gains are impossible so we might as well take concessions. No thanks, ill work under my current contract before I take one concession.

Nobody is asking your side for concessions, unless you count PBS. However demanding much more than you currently have, and/or demanding no PBS is going to result in this continuing to drag out with your side suffering the consequences.

You in your previous post are basically asking us for concessions by saying that "one(concessions) is attainable and the other(gains) is not attainable". So which is it? To me you are back on your whole "you gotta take concessions because its IMPOSSIBLE to make any headway" argument.

I dont buy it.

I also dont see our union demanding anything, at least not publicly. You have pilots on here and on the pipe "demanding" things, but like I already said they dont speak for the pilot group.

Your union has publicly said "our PBS or nothing". At least our union has said "line bidding or maybe this PBS". So who is demanding in that situation?

I wonder what the company is "demanding"?

Demands come from all sides.

 

[azpilot]

I find it amusing to watch a bunch of twenty somethings try and teach everyone about negotiating with Jerry....I know you guys have it all figured out in your vast years of negotiating, but I wouldn't count Jerry out just yet...:laugh:

I'm 43 and say stfu JM.

 

[jonjuan]

Is this JM guy a regional lifer? If so, explains everything.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Is this JM guy a regional lifer? If so, explains everything.

Yep, he started at ASA in 1994.

 

[Nevets]

That's good advice...Jerry has a Plan B, C, and probably D....I doubt any of the ones after Plan A involve the legacy XJT folks....

I guess he needs all those plans. I just need one back up. But good for him. I'm sure he will sleep ok at night, seriously.

 

[701EV]

Is this JM guy a regional lifer? If so, explains everything.

Is there something wrong with being a regional lifer?

If so, explain.

I didn't know it was against the law to be a regional lifer.

I guess if someone is happy at their regional, likes the schedules they hold, likes the quality of life they have, is happy flying the equipment they fly they must be CRAZY!

Are you Xjet guys going to remove every MEC Chairman that agrees with Mgmt?

I know you folks know the Golden Rule. As much as all of us may not like it, Jerry has all of the Gold. Jerry make the rules. If we do not play by his rules you will LOSE!