ASA/XJT update

[JoeMerchant]

I honestly think it just simply comes down to the XJT pilots not wanting to take any other concession in a new contract. I've got plan B. I suggest everyone have one. That is where the leverage comes from.

That's good advice...Jerry has a Plan B, C, and probably D....I doubt any of the ones after Plan A involve the legacy XJT folks....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well stated, Nevjets, Plan B is a must.

JoeM, I just cannot see the common sense in us taking concessions with Eagle and Republic offering $5000 signing bonuses (2 year contract) to find qualified candidates. Times are changing and our 50 seaters are gone, regardless. We are not overpaid on the ERJ side. I have no idea who this supposed pilot is that broke $300K. In the 6+ years as a captain, and working pretty hard, I have never seen 90K+.

Any concessionary contract, for the LXJT side, will find very little, if any, support.

Nobody is asking your side for concessions, unless you count PBS. However demanding much more than you currently have, and/or demanding no PBS is going to result in this continuing to drag out with your side suffering the consequences.

 

[rjacobs]

there is a huge difference between taking guys mid seniority and moving them to DFW. That opens a pandoras box and certainly not what they are asking. they will get the pilots somehwere. if the LXJT guys think this is a good fight to fight then ok... I just dont see it as it doesnt benefit anyone. You gotta pick your battles and this aint one i would fight. but thats just my opinion. i think this small little thing is more indicative of the battle between LXJT and management and it looks like its starting to get ugly.
.

IM not suggesting taking mid seniority guys and moving them around, just saying if an SLI was done there are guys on the ERJ side that would willingly move to the CRJ side to take those slots. And your point was moving 1st year guys was cost neutral, well so would moving a more senior guy if that guy volunteers to go.

 

[LHRCrewDog]

Nobody is asking your side for concessions, unless you count PBS. However demanding much more than you currently have, and/or demanding no PBS is going to result in this continuing to drag out with your side suffering the consequences.

I thought LASA came to the table with the ASA contract +4%, of course, with PBS, loss of work rules and soft time. Pretty big give back there.

And yes, Joe, of course we consider PBS a concession. How can you put that conditional statement, "unless you count PBS" as a concession? How long have you been around, seriously...

I think you, or someone else, are generalizing a lot of our pilot group into something they are not. Not sure if it was you who stated that 300K bs statement, but completely wrong. I do not know what our negotiating committee is asking for, but that should be for them to know. If you are privy to some info, you probably should not be posting it on this forum. It is probably not true and it will do no good to bring it up on an anonymous forum. I do not know how you can generalize all of our pilot group based on being "in the know" of our negotiating committees.

I guess I do not come on here very often, but seeing some of the crap posted in this thread just makes me think that you are just creating a rift between our pilot groups. But then again, I am not one of those cool "in the know" guys like you, Joe.

 

[rjacobs]

I find it amusing to watch a bunch of twenty somethings try and teach everyone about negotiating with Jerry....I know you guys have it all figured out in your vast years of negotiating, but I wouldn't count Jerry out just yet...:laugh:

And it took you guys what 6 years to get your current contract that isnt even that great of a contract(arguably worse than ours that was signed in 2004). Yup, looks like you guys are the ones to ask on how to negotiate with Inc.

The United and American pilots "expected" more also...Doesn't mean you get it.

There is a big difference between "reasonable gains in all areas of your contract" and not taking concessions. One is attainable, one is not....I guess you guys will have to figure out which one is attainable

The UAL have yet to vote on the turd that was laid in front of them. AA is in BK and so far is still working under their old contract since not much of the 1113c contract has been forced on them, yet.

What you are saying is that gains are impossible so we might as well take concessions. No thanks, ill work under my current contract before I take one concession.

Nobody is asking your side for concessions, unless you count PBS. However demanding much more than you currently have, and/or demanding no PBS is going to result in this continuing to drag out with your side suffering the consequences.

You in your previous post are basically asking us for concessions by saying that "one(concessions) is attainable and the other(gains) is not attainable". So which is it? To me you are back on your whole "you gotta take concessions because its IMPOSSIBLE to make any headway" argument.

I dont buy it.

I also dont see our union demanding anything, at least not publicly. You have pilots on here and on the pipe "demanding" things, but like I already said they dont speak for the pilot group.

Your union has publicly said "our PBS or nothing". At least our union has said "line bidding or maybe this PBS". So who is demanding in that situation?

I wonder what the company is "demanding"?

Demands come from all sides.

 

[azpilot]

I find it amusing to watch a bunch of twenty somethings try and teach everyone about negotiating with Jerry....I know you guys have it all figured out in your vast years of negotiating, but I wouldn't count Jerry out just yet...:laugh:

I'm 43 and say stfu JM.

 

[jonjuan]

Is this JM guy a regional lifer? If so, explains everything.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Is this JM guy a regional lifer? If so, explains everything.

Yep, he started at ASA in 1994.

 

[Nevets]

That's good advice...Jerry has a Plan B, C, and probably D....I doubt any of the ones after Plan A involve the legacy XJT folks....

I guess he needs all those plans. I just need one back up. But good for him. I'm sure he will sleep ok at night, seriously.

 

[701EV]

Is this JM guy a regional lifer? If so, explains everything.

Is there something wrong with being a regional lifer?

If so, explain.

I didn't know it was against the law to be a regional lifer.

I guess if someone is happy at their regional, likes the schedules they hold, likes the quality of life they have, is happy flying the equipment they fly they must be CRAZY!

Are you Xjet guys going to remove every MEC Chairman that agrees with Mgmt?

I know you folks know the Golden Rule. As much as all of us may not like it, Jerry has all of the Gold. Jerry make the rules. If we do not play by his rules you will LOSE!

 

[007]

Jerry has all of the Gold. Jerry make the rules. If we do not play by his rules you will LOSE!

Oh my....Jerry is...GOD himself.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

ASA rocks. I want an AceyPalooza ticket! Go Atlanta! woo!!!!!!
Who needs a contract when I'm getting a free turkey?
Gimme a ride in a Mini Indy car, don't worry about Painmaker!
Roll my day off, then don't restore it, it's ok.
Thank you, may I have another?
I love surveys that don't apply to flight crews, but to the people in the cubicles...
We're getting iPads tomorrow! AeroData in da house!
Take away my Business travel insurance, I won't notice!
Oooh look, a shiny pin!
Surely, a jet. Are you Sure? Raise your hands if you're Sure!

What if they offered you free Cowboy boots?

 

[www.]

Is this JM guy a regional lifer? If so, explains everything.

Hmmm. Food for thought. There were about 5 guys that left ASA in 1999 for UAL. Guess what they are doing now after loosing their homes, wives and retirements. Called back for a "3rd" time to UAL.

People make moves on their own agenda not yours.

 

[titans10]

Yep, he started at ASA in 1994.

He was part of the problem back in the day. PFT.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Oooh. A regional "lifer". There are NO guarantees in this industry and I count myself lucky to have been steadily employed here. Somehow the entitlement generation thinks they should all be 777 captains at age 30 with their six month crash-course ATP training. Get in line, guys and gals

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Guess what they are doing now after loosing their homes, wives and retirements.

What is that word?

 

[IFLYASA]

The United and American pilots "expected" more also...Doesn't mean you get it.

There is a big difference between "reasonable gains in all areas of your contract" and not taking concessions. One is attainable, one is not....I guess you guys will have to figure out which one is attainable

Well said Joe. I hear the XJT side is losing about 100k per month, where as the ASA side makes profit.

This cannot be sustained. Take the ASA contract, add 3%, give a little here, take a little there, clean up the language, and keep PBS. We are the best regional in the industry. Let's not price ourselves into a Comair/Pinnacle!

 

[IFLYASA]

Regarding PBS. Here at ASA I loved line bidding. I voted no for PBS and was pi$$ed when we got it. Now, I could never go back. I went from one extreme to the other. PBS is a beautiful thing.

For example. If Christams is on a Wedneday, with traditional line bidding you would do a 4 day that starts on Thurs-Sat to get Christmas off. But now you are losing weekneds. With PBS, you can bid weekends off, and still bid a schedule around Christmas. Also, Alot of guys will bid 3, 25 hour 4 day trips to get their 75 hours, then they have a week off. You can still get you 75 hour pay during vacation with 3 weeks off.

This is just a sample, but believe me, you would love it.

 

[79%N1]

Regarding PBS. Here at ASA I loved line bidding. I voted no for PBS and was pi$$ed when we got it. Now, I could never go back. I went from one extreme to the other. PBS is a beautiful thing.

For example. If Christams is on a Wedneday, with traditional line bidding you would do a 4 day that starts on Thurs-Sat to get Christmas off. But now you are losing weekneds. With PBS, you can bid weekends off, and still bid a schedule around Christmas. Also, Alot of guys will bid 3, 25 hour 4 day trips to get their 75 hours, then they have a week off. You can still get you 75 hour pay during vacation with 3 weeks off.

This is just a sample, but believe me, you would love it.

Ditto.

I want the second of Dec. off, and to work Thur-Sun. Easy with PBS. With line bidding, how many lines would I need to sort through to find that combo, and what are the odds I get THAT particular line. PBS is a better way to bid, and all this "it's a concession" is A LOAD OF CRAP!

 

[www.]

What is that word?

Losing. Thank you.

 

[LHRCrewDog]

Ditto.

I want the second of Dec. off, and to work Thur-Sun. Easy with PBS. With line bidding, how many lines would I need to sort through to find that combo, and what are the odds I get THAT particular line. PBS is a better way to bid, and all this "it's a concession" is A LOAD OF CRAP!

You just do not know our contract...and yes, we do not know PBS.

Our contract rules complement our current bidding system. If we go to PBS, things may get simplified, but we will ultimately lose out on some of the work rules that make our contract really top-notch. I think most of us would keep these work rules that we worked so hard to get even if it means spending 30 min sorting through the lines, and possibly 10-15 min on the line improvement window.

Lets all take a reality check here. There is only one thing we know for certain. There is a difference in culture between LASA and LXJT. Real shocker there... In general, we will never see things from the same perspective because we have all been in different environments for the past too many years.

 

[enuffalready]

You just do not know our contract...and yes, we do not know PBS.

Our contract rules complement our current bidding system. If we go to PBS, things may get simplified, but we will ultimately lose out on some of the work rules that make our contract really top-notch. I think most of us would keep these work rules that we worked so hard to get even if it means spending 30 min sorting through the lines, and possibly 10-15 min on the line improvement window.

Lets all take a reality check here. There is only one thing we know for certain. There is a difference in culture between LASA and LXJT. Real shocker there... In general, we will never see things from the same perspective because we have all been in different environments for the past too many years.

what the XJT guys haven't learned yet ( not their fault) is that when OO bought ASA, our guys were very militant.... over the years, and with some wounds, we have learned to work in concert with OO and as a result the majority of us are very happy. ASA/OO pilots have a lot more in common than the XJT peeps. The XJT peeps can be all militant if they want, but it would be wise to learn from our mistakes. Go ahead and fight the fight, the beneficiaries will be ASA/OO

 

[LHRCrewDog]

what the XJT guys haven't learned yet ( not their fault) is that when OO bought ASA, our guys were very militant.... over the years, and with some wounds, we have learned to work in concert with OO and as a result the majority of us are very happy. ASA/OO pilots have a lot more in common than the XJT peeps. The XJT peeps can be all militant if they want, but it would be wise to learn from our mistakes. Go ahead and fight the fight, the beneficiaries will be ASA/OO

I agree with most of what you stated. But look at the entire regional industry right now. Eagle and Republic offering $5000 signing bonuses. Legacies beginning the hiring wave soon. Most companies, except for Pinnacle, making money. The tides are turning.

I am a little out of the loop, so I do not know how militant "I" supposedly am. I really do not know what our side is asking for. The only point that I am trying to make is that our soon to be TA should have a total compensation package that is not unreasonable, but should be slightly industry leading for the regional side. This can be a combination of work rules, PBS and pay rates. To ask the LXJT side to give up 5% more on the total package (includes everything from medical to pay rates to PBS) would, in my humble opinion, be the equivalent of LASA (work rules and pay) + 3%. Probably not the best time for concessions and even Darby and Cohen would support this, per their latest article.

If our guys are being militant, they are probably not expecting to get what they want. But the TA that is produced will probably be reasonable and pass.

 

[enuffalready]

I agree with most of what you stated. But look at the entire regional industry right now. Eagle and Republic offering $5000 signing bonuses. Legacies beginning the hiring wave soon. Most companies, except for Pinnacle, making money. The tides are turning.

I am a little out of the loop, so I do not know how militant "I" supposedly am. I really do not know what our side is asking for. The only point that I am trying to make is that our soon to be TA should have a total compensation package that is not unreasonable, but should be slightly industry leading for the regional side. This can be a combination of work rules, PBS and pay rates. To ask the LXJT side to give up 5% more on the total package (includes everything from medical to pay rates to PBS) would, in my humble opinion, be the equivalent of LASA (work rules and pay) + 3%. Probably not the best time for concessions and even Darby and Cohen would support this, per their latest article.

If our guys are being militant, they are probably not expecting to get what they want. But the TA that is produced will probably be reasonable and pass.

there is a HUGE difference between offering 20 new pilots a signing bonus vs a working agreement that effects 5000 pilots for next 4-6 years. Yes tide is turning, but we also have new rest rules which are going to be a large expense in the future. again, you guys can fight the fight if that's what you want, but I think it just a bad idea. LASA guys have been where you are are now... we were militant... and so were the comair guys. Difference is we learned a happy medium and for the most part we are very happy. You haven't yet, are still militant.. and looks like are going to learn the hard way.

 

[Flyer1015]

What is that word?

"What is a loosie?"

"Is that a way of saying oral sex?"

"No..... But we should start saying that."

 

[ASAFOE120]

So Eagle is in bankruptcy and just voted in a concessionary contract. PNCL is in bankruptcy and is working out there concessionary contract. We bid against the likes of Mesa and Gojets for flying and we are supposed to be holding out for an "industry leading" contract???? I'm all for getting what I can but it's hard to raise the bar when everyone else is going the other way. Sign a 3 year deal and let's start negotiating in 2 years when hopefully the economy is better and lots of movement is taking place and hopefully we have
More leverage.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Ditto the above. Keeping what we have, not the worst thing.

 

[FightingIrish]

I am a little out of the loop, so I do not know how militant "I" supposedly am. I really do not know what our side is asking for. The only point that I am trying to make is that our soon to be TA should have a total compensation package that is not unreasonable, but should be slightly industry leading for the regional side.

ejpogo, the problem is both the ASA and XJT contracts are already very industry leading, not just "slightly". That is without any improvements at all. They are about to get even more industry leading when the new Pinnacle contract is put in place.

 

[FightingIrish]

so eagle is in bankruptcy and just voted in a concessionary contract. Pncl is in bankruptcy and is working out there concessionary contract. We bid against the likes of mesa and gojets for flying and we are supposed to be holding out for an "industry leading" contract???? I'm all for getting what i can but it's hard to raise the bar when everyone else is going the other way. Sign a 3 year deal and let's start negotiating in 2 years when hopefully the economy is better and lots of movement is taking place and hopefully we have
more leverage.

exactly!

 

[dojetdriver]

Ditto the above. Keeping what we have, not the worst thing.

If "keeping what we have" means sticking with the CRJ CBA it's a concession for the majority of the combined pilot group. That's just a fact.

I know, I know, it's "unreasonable" for ANYBODY to think that they should have to take a concession.