ASA to still furlough?

[CFI2766]

My financial advisor tells me this is "good"...

Before I even clicked, I knew exactly what I was gonna see!!! All hail Gordon Gekkoooo!!!!! :laugh:


Nicely done...

 

[BoilerUP]

It is possible to negotiate keeping vacation trip touching with with PBS; just the loss of training & integration conflicts would be a financial benefit to the company. Of course it wouldn't be as big a gain for management as surrendering vacation trip touching, but any cost cuts are beneficial in today's environment.

The question one has to ask, however, is if that small concession (which has minimal negative impact on the pilot group other than lowering required staffing) worth the upside of the company being more cost competitive.

The single biggest thing with PBS is strong, well-written scheduling language covering paring construction and a definition of "min schedule".

 

[COOPERVANE]

However, a survey was taken about 2 years ago that showed a high majority of our pilots liked PBS over the old hard paper lines of years ago.

Go figure?

Yeah, maybe compared to paper bids. But ASA has been using online bidding for years.

It is NOT WORTH IT if it screws with our current vacation conflict policy.

With a little creative bidding/swapping, I had FORTY days vacation last year with only 2 weeks off scheduled. From 14 to 40!! That is huge for me!

THAT is a deal breaker for me

 

[enuffalready]

Yeah, maybe compared to paper bids. But ASA has been using online bidding for years.

It is NOT WORTH IT if it screws with our current vacation conflict policy.

With a little creative bidding/swapping, I had FORTY days vacation last year with only 2 weeks off scheduled. From 14 to 40!! That is huge for me!

THAT is a deal breaker for me

too funny... I'm an ASA guy... but come on... You sound like gettlefinger with the UAW talking about his union guys not giving up their pay or benefits.. then wondering why GM and chrysler are about to be TU. Do you honestly expect ASA or any airline to exist for long with this mentality?

on the other hand... i will give you the benefit of the doubt with that avatar.... nice side boob

 

[asayankee]

I would like there to be the option...If you want to work and maximize pay then let it back-fill your vacation. Or.....just like you can now, bid to drop conflicting trips to maximize your vacation time.

In a sense you are buying more vacation time from the company but at least you have the option to do what's important for you.

I'd also like to see what we can negotiate for furlough/downgrade protection due to the implementation of PBS IF it gets voted in. Maybe time limits or seat-locks for your current position, etc...

 

[CFIT]

Just curious, why did it take so long to get it acceptable at your property? I have friends at Comair and they have had it for years and claim they are still trying to fix it. My friends at Delta, who have had it for 3 years, say that PBS now has greater satisfaction among more pilots and that a majority would not want to go back to line bidding.

Is it the learning curve that causes dissatisfaction, especially in the beginning?

At first they would run a test and there would be failures, for legal rest requirements as an example. Then there was a problem for what SkyWest calls "stand-up" or as others call Continous Duty Overnights, at first the program couldn't tell them apart. The program had problems when only some of the crews were qualified on only the CRJ200 and some crews were current on all three types.

The true problem was that the vendor, AOS, didn't really have a good product. Which was all started because it was the cheapest one out. Now that SkyWest has spent plenty on getting it right, or at least good enough, I'm afraid that is what will be pushed on the ASA guys.

Not all PBS programs are the same, I've been told the product used at Northwest is very good but I don't know which brand it is?

 

[79%N1]

The true problem was that the vendor, AOS, didn't really have a good product. Which was all started because it was the cheapest one out. Now that SkyWest has spent plenty on getting it right, or at least good enough, I'm afraid that is what will be pushed on the ASA guys.

But...........Unlike SKYW, ASA pilots can negotiate with the company for what we get. See, our bidding process is in our contract, so we can vote on and agree on what we use if we change said contract. You guys wouldn't know about that, though.

 

[USCtrojan]

But...........Unlike SKYW, ASA pilots can negotiate with the company for what we get. See, our bidding process is in our contract, so we can vote on and agree on what we use if we change said contract. You guys wouldn't know about that, though.

AOS is NOT being considered. When I talked to the Captain's Rep, he said that AOS was likely one of the worst programs and it wouldn't be considered. As far as I know, the frontrunner is flightline and I know the Union has looked at Navatech as well as others. Flightline's product supposedly is the easiest to use and Virgin America is the launch customer for it. We will see how it works out!

Trojan

 

[Plainsman]

Got it, we take PBS and in turn they give us 2 to 3 more hours of sick time every month. People could just call in sick before and or after their vacation and not even worry about building back their lines. This may not work for the guys hoping to go to Delter. Joking aside shouldn't we hold off on PBS until the next contract. If we take it now what will we have to bargain with when new negotiations come up.

 

[Speedtape]

But...........Unlike SKYW, ASA pilots can negotiate with the company for what we get. See, our bidding process is in our contract, so we can vote on and agree on what we use if we change said contract. You guys wouldn't know about that, though.

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT--TimeOut Please--Let's try and keep this discussion free of Union vs Nonunion Rhetoric. If we could allow some free flowing discussion regarding PBS with Skywest Pilots, we may be able to effect a Transfer of Knowledge about a very important issue that we are facing.

We all know how they got there with PBS. Yes, from all accounts, AOS is the worst system out there. However, if we can educate ourselves about PBS based on their experiences, maybe we can avoid pitfalls and get a much better system than AOS--maybe even the best system available today. With their participation, maybe we can get a system that will be adopted for them also. Bottom line--we may all benefit with a little help from our friends(both sides.)

Otherwise, he can remain ignorant and in the dark and be deficient in managing our resources.

Is there value in collaboration between the parties? ABSOLUTELY! Could we all benefit down the road? Certainly! PBS is coming to ASA--in a few months or in a year or so! It is in our best interest to get edumacated using all available resources! In that spirit, let's make it work and foster an evironment for a good exchange of ideas and information so we can make intelligent decisions at some point in the near future!

First order of business: I move that Utah should be at least a Co-National Champion in NCAAFB.

 

[neecy]

You are right

Many PBS systems out there for ASA F/As we get more "credit" on paper for vacation so you only have to build a line to say 60, you can have the days off but as it is now you do not get paid for the days dropped. PBS is as good as the system as you purchase. walmart vs. High end

 

[Speedtape]

Yeah, maybe compared to paper bids. But ASA has been using online bidding for years.
True--but in the beginning, Flica was just line bidding(a month's trips in a published line.) Then later with the sorts, it was line bidding using preferences(sorts) which is a rough preferencial bidding system.

It is NOT WORTH IT if it screws with our current vacation conflict policy.
There may be ways around your concern that would preserve your option.

With a little creative bidding/swapping, I had FORTY days vacation last year with only 2 weeks off scheduled. From 14 to 40!! That is huge for me!
Well, as smart as you seem to be, you could probably make PBS work better for you than most of your competing bidders.

THAT is a deal breaker for me

You are taking the position that you and I will have a choice. Sooner or later, PBS will be here. My suggestion is we get the best system we can get and then customize it through the work rules we need to make it work for us. Hopefully, that is what this study committee is doing. But, unless we learn more, how will we know?

 

[Speedtape]

At first they would run a test and there would be failures, for legal rest requirements as an example. Then there was a problem for what SkyWest calls "stand-up" or as others call Continous Duty Overnights, at first the program couldn't tell them apart. The program had problems when only some of the crews were qualified on only the CRJ200 and some crews were current on all three types.

The true problem was that the vendor, AOS, didn't really have a good product. Which was all started because it was the cheapest one out. Now that SkyWest has spent plenty on getting it right, or at least good enough, I'm afraid that is what will be pushed on the ASA guys.

Not all PBS programs are the same, I've been told the product used at Northwest is very good but I don't know which brand it is?

Northwest was using a program called Carmen, which is what the Comair pilots use. My friends at NWA seem to be happy with it; the Comair pilots I have talked to don't like it. However, with Delta, the NWA pilots (now Delta, I guess) will use their system called Navtech. My friends at Delta say they have to use a companion program that they buy from Flightline to make Navtech user friendly enough to use. They say without the Flightline companion program, you have to almost be a programmer to make it work for you.

 

[USCtrojan]

You are taking the position that you and I will have a choice. Sooner or later, PBS will be here. My suggestion is we get the best system we can get and then customize it through the work rules we need to make it work for us. Hopefully, that is what this study committee is doing. But, unless we learn more, how will we know?

This was another great point the Capt. Rep made. He said that right now ASA is in a unique situation because we can adopt a PBS program with our COMPLETE input. Nothing being rammed down our throat. Reason being is that no matter what kind of PBS system we adopt, the most expensive, will still save the Company $$ over the long run. Which brings up another point. Once PBS is here, it will be here FOREVER. There will be no "ahh, this thing sucks, so lets get rid of it." I have complete faith in the Union researching everything there is to know about this. They've done an outstanding job of it. They're not the greatest in communication (it's getting much better), but the work they've done on this has been outstanding.

Trojan

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes, PBS is quite efficient. I do not have an exact number but it appears that it is a 7-10% reduction in staffing with PBS.

 

[CFI2766]

Yes, PBS is quite efficient. I do not have an exact number but it appears that it is a 7-10% reduction in staffing with PBS.

Hey committee, can we accomplish a PBS that:

1) Doesn't cause an immediate to near term need to furlough pilots at ASA. What I mean is, can it be structured so that future attrition can decrease, if necessary, the pilot ranks at ASA? This, versus we get PBS on Monday, and have pink slips for some on Friday...

2) Doesn't cause an immediate reduction in QOL? As in, we get PBS and find that the average time away from work is decreased, or, if held the same, results in a decrease in pay.

3) Is transparent enough so that there will be no question on the awards as to which seniority can hold what schedule? I fear that a PBS that system that awards a senior guy working Christmas while a junior guy gets the holiday off, with no way to research why that happened, and then, correct it with regards to seniority.

Can we do this?

 

[FORESTGUMP]

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT--TimeOut Please--Let's try and keep this discussion free of Union vs Nonunion Rhetoric. If we could allow some free flowing discussion regarding PBS with Skywest Pilots, we may be able to effect a Transfer of Knowledge about a very important issue that we are facing.

We all know how they got there with PBS. Yes, from all accounts, AOS is the worst system out there. However, if we can educate ourselves about PBS based on their experiences, maybe we can avoid pitfalls and get a much better system than AOS--maybe even the best system available today. With their participation, maybe we can get a system that will be adopted for them also. Bottom line--we may all benefit with a little help from our friends(both sides.)

Otherwise, he can remain ignorant and in the dark and be deficient in managing our resources.

Is there value in collaboration between the parties? ABSOLUTELY! Could we all benefit down the road? Certainly! PBS is coming to ASA--in a few months or in a year or so! It is in our best interest to get edumacated using all available resources! In that spirit, let's make it work and foster an evironment for a good exchange of ideas and information so we can make intelligent decisions at some point in the near future!

First order of business: I move that Utah should be at least a Co-National Champion in NCAAFB.

excellent post!

and ditto on the Utah thing.

 

[USCtrojan]

Hey committee, can we accomplish a PBS that:

1) Doesn't cause an immediate to near term need to furlough pilots at ASA. What I mean is, can it be structured so that future attrition can decrease, if necessary, the pilot ranks at ASA? This, versus we get PBS on Monday, and have pink slips for some on Friday...

2) Doesn't cause an immediate reduction in QOL? As in, we get PBS and find that the average time away from work is decreased, or, if held the same, results in a decrease in pay.

3) Is transparent enough so that there will be no question on the awards as to which seniority can hold what schedule? I fear that a PBS that system that awards a senior guy working Christmas while a junior guy gets the holiday off, with no way to research why that happened, and then, correct it with regards to seniority.

Can we do this?

Glenn,

If you look at the past ASAConnection newsletters you will see some of your answers in them. The PBS working group showed there was an INCREASE in QOL with they way the pilot group wanted to implement PBS. Of course no details. I agree with you, I will not be for any implementation of PBS if it puts pilots on the street. I don't care what the reason. I think the Company would agree that is not what ASA intends or wants. If we furlough, it would be before any PBS is implemented, and I'm certain, if implemented will have no harmful effects on anyone currently on the property. It may delay hiring for a little while, but that is not a good reason not to implement it if it saves money and is more efficient all the way around.

Trojan

 

[CFI2766]

Glenn,

If you look at the past ASAConnection newsletters you will see some of your answers in them. The PBS working group showed there was an INCREASE in QOL with they way the pilot group wanted to implement PBS. Of course no details. I agree with you, I will not be for any implementation of PBS if it puts pilots on the street. I don't care what the reason. I think the Company would agree that is not what ASA intends or wants. If we furlough, it would be before any PBS is implemented, and I'm certain, if implemented will have no harmful effects on anyone currently on the property. It may delay hiring for a little while, but that is not a good reason not to implement it if it saves money and is more efficient all the way around.

Trojan

Sounds like we are on the same page...metaphorically and electronically.

I'd like more details from the guys

 

[lonestarpilot20]

The trips fall off if they touch your vacation, if you so choose. You still have to build back up to guarantee if you go below 75 hours. I sure don't want this option taken away from me. I have been off since the 16th of December.

That's exactly my concern. One of my last vacations I had bid Sun-Wed 4 days and to drop all conflicting. I had 17 days off in a row with 21 total for the month. I am not convinced that this possible with PBS.

Plus I like seeing where the RONs are and for how long. Mainly so I know where I will be drinking and how long I have to recover