ASA taking over Freedom flying

[IronCityBlue]

If you work for Delta, you don't "own" one seat of DL code, either. In fact, the last time I looked, more than 50% of Delta Domestic is now flown by DCI. Can anyone else confirm this? The only entity that "owns" Delta code is Delta, Inc.--not to be confused with the other wholly-owned subsidiary, Delta Airlines.

In the late 90's, the number of pilots on the Delta seniority list approached 10,000. Today, it is around 5800. What leverage do you have to negotiate anything?

In your mind, outsourcing may have gone too far, but the reality is that it will continue to grow and your domestic flying will continue to shrink. Your pilots do not want to fly small jets. They gave that up in 1996 which allowed outsourcing, and the rest of the pilot groups had to follow. Of course, you were probably in elementary school then, and should not be blamed.

The only thing that mainline pilot groups will negotiate is further scope relief to regain some pay and benefits. As a result, you will perpetuate the outsourcing that you so hate! It's coming. International flying will increase, requiring a few more pilots, but the relief on scope will cause a further shrinking of your list. Outsourcing and further shifting of domestic flying to DCI will continue under present trends and fuel costs. MGMT has you over the barrel. Just watch for the next round of concessionary bargaining.

The only entity that "owns" DL code or seats is Inc.--not your pilot group or the wholly-owned company that you work for!

The continued growth of outsourced lift may or may not happen. But it is not up to you. It is 100% up to mainline pilot groups. They have to not only approve additional outsourcing, as you predict, but also they have to continually approve all current outsourcing. I predict the trend will first stop, and then reverse itself.

What baffles me is why you think more outsourcing is a good thing. Your entire future depends on mainline shortsightedness continuing for all time. That's a mighty arrogant foundation for your argument. You might be right, but I predict you won't be.

As for "half of all mainline domestic flights" it is somewhere near half the block hours, which is still an extremely small percentage of total seats. That's why I advocate the immediate return of all 90 seaters, followed by a 3 or 4 year return of all 70 seaters, and then begin to address the 50 seat market at a much later date, keeping that unlimited for the meantime (except new fleet types, for you never know when a 50 seat sized 787 may come along).

 

[Jimmy C. Corn]

Go to DeltaNet....Network Planning and Rev. Management...Schedule development....

Notice it's Delta Net...it's not ASA Net. Please keep that in mind.

Iron City Blue makes a very strong point about bringing all outsourced flying back to the mainline...let's get rid of this bickering.

 

[Speedtape]

Notice it's Delta Net...it's not ASA Net. Please keep that in mind.

Iron City Blue makes a very strong point about bringing all outsourced flying back to the mainline...let's get rid of this bickering.

It will never happen. The majority is more interested in restoring pay and benefits on the large airplanes. They will not barter that position away to fly small airplanes. However, they will give scope relief to leverage the restoration of pay and benefits.

Look at how Scope has evolved over the last 25-30 years. The trend is towards outsourcing, not regaining small airplane flying. It will never be reversed.

Iron City must be a very junior pilot. He hopes that would happen for a quicker upgrade. The trend will not be reversed, unless you sign a 15 year contract at minimum wage. That will not happen.

The majority in your group wants larger planes and better pay and benefits. Some would argue the right seat in a heavy plane is better than a left seat in an RJ or a 100 seat jet. They may be right, and that is another reason that the trend will continue.

Iron City will be in the right seat a long time--or furloughed, unless his number is higher than that of Troy Kane--the last protected pilot from furlough. Good luck!

 

[FORESTGUMP]

The continued growth of outsourced lift may or may not happen. But it is not up to you. It is 100% up to mainline pilot groups. They have to not only approve additional outsourcing, as you predict, but also they have to continually approve all current outsourcing. I predict the trend will first stop, and then reverse itself.

What baffles me is why you think more outsourcing is a good thing. Your entire future depends on mainline shortsightedness continuing for all time. That's a mighty arrogant foundation for your argument. You might be right, but I predict you won't be.

As for "half of all mainline domestic flights" it is somewhere near half the block hours, which is still an extremely small percentage of total seats. That's why I advocate the immediate return of all 90 seaters, followed by a 3 or 4 year return of all 70 seaters, and then begin to address the 50 seat market at a much later date, keeping that unlimited for the meantime (except new fleet types, for you never know when a 50 seat sized 787 may come along).

You are possibly the dumbest and most arrogant jackass to hit this board since those other two deltoid idiots....damn.

 

[pdub20s]

ASA getting MCO flying just doesn't make sense. You have an installed group of Comair MCO commuters who've operated the base successfully for the previous two iterations we were based there. Over/Underwing is accomplished by Comair, too. DL would get a pool of happy pilots who positive-space commute by car and the operation would yet again run like a champ.

I am glad, however, to see the ERJs go and ASA will be a much more welcome sight to my commute!

Its funny when you ASA and Comair guys kiss our a$$es when it comes to trying to jumpseat when all 50 seats are full with paying passengers.... "Hey Captain, can I catch a ride with you guys? They are all full in the back."

But you mesa bashers talk sooo much $hit.... You have never heard a MESA pilot bash any other pilot group. The biggest misconception on this board is that MESA pilots bid to take other flying. When it is MGT dealings. We would like to hear you guys talk that ******************** at the flight deck door.

PS...

FOR YOU ASA,COMAIR,SKW, or any other airlines with a indefinite upgrade time.... ITS OFFICIAL..WE ARE HIRING STREET CAPTAINS IN THE CRJ.

Mesa Air Group has incredible pilot opportunities for Captains and First Officers in our Canadair Regional Jet and Dash 8 fleet. We offer exceptional career advancement opportunities, a great Work/Life Balance, competitive wages and an excellent benefits package. Best of all…travel for FREE anywhere we fly! Currently we are accepting applications for both street Captains AND First Officer positions. Slots are limited so please apply online ASAP!!
Our first ground school class for street Captains is April 7, 2008 (both equipment). Our next class is being determined at this very moment.
CAPTAIN* REQUIREMENTS:
• Must have previous airline experience
• CRJ: 3500 hours total time with 500 hours jet time
• DHC-8: ATP minimums
• Commercial Pilot Certificate with Multi Engine and Instrument ratings
• Current FAA First Class Medical certificate
• Instrument current and proficient
• FCC Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit
• Current passport
• At least 21 years of age
• Legally authorized to work in the United States of America
• Willing to relocate
• Able to pass security background check and FAA mandated drug test
• High school diploma or GED
FIRST OFFICER REQUIREMENTS:
• 500 hours Total Time
• 100 hours Multi Engine Time, Fixed Wing
• Commercial Pilot Certificate with Multi Engine and Instrument ratings
• Current FAA First Class Medical certificate
• Instrument current and proficient
• FCC Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit
• Current passport
• At least 21 years of age
• Legally authorized to work in the United States of America
• Willing to relocate
• Able to pass security background check and FAA mandated drug test
• High school diploma or GED
*Captain applicants with a CRJ type rating could be eligible for a $5000 Sign-on Bonus!
For more information about our immediate pilot opportunities or to fill out an online application, please visit:
www.mesa-air.com/pilots.asp

 

[McNugent]

You Mesa morons can't bash anyone else because you are the bottom of the barrel. There isn't anything for you to bash!

 

[pdub20s]

You Mesa morons can't bash anyone else because you are the bottom of the barrel. There isn't anything for you to bash!

now now now...lets not start comparing safety records ;-) who do you work for again?

 

[TristarJS30]

PS...

FOR YOU ASA,COMAIR,SKW, or any other airlines with a indefinite upgrade time.... ITS OFFICIAL..WE ARE HIRING STREET CAPTAINS IN THE CRJ.

I wouldn't brag about the need to hire outside people for a Captain slot. I live in base (JFK) and am "stuck" at a carrier with an iffy future (what regional doesn't at this point) and 5 year upgrade. I have more than enough flight time and thought about it for about .02 seconds. It'd be nice to collect some PIC time, but if I'm going to spend the next few years getting crapped on by my new company and the rest of the industry as a whole while flying with FO's that don't have enough time to upgrade in the next few years... I'd rather enjoy my QOL as a gear slinger at a company with an "indefinite upgrade time". Sorry man. Not a personal attack... just sayin.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Yeah, I don't get it PDUB. 2 or 3 weeks ago you started a thread about Mesa and how you wanted out. Now you are recruiting for them?

What gives?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=110048

As far as anybody chasing an upgrade, especially at an airline with the reputation of Mesa, you're going to get what you deserve.

 

[pdub20s]

Yeah, I don't get it PDUB. 2 or 3 weeks ago you started a thread about Mesa and how you wanted out. Now you are recruiting for them?

What gives?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=110048

Im not recruiting. I hope nobody comes over. Its just more leverage for us to get a better contract.

I was just "hanging a piece of Steak infront of the starving dog"

 

[zawillif]

Its funny when you ASA and Comair guys kiss our a$$es when it comes to trying to jumpseat when all 50 seats are full with paying passengers.... "Hey Captain, can I catch a ride with you guys? They are all full in the back."

But you mesa bashers talk sooo much $hit.... You have never heard a MESA pilot bash any other pilot group. The biggest misconception on this board is that MESA pilots bid to take other flying. When it is MGT dealings. We would like to hear you guys talk that ******************** at the flight deck door.

PS...

FOR YOU ASA,COMAIR,SKW, or any other airlines with a indefinite upgrade time.... ITS OFFICIAL..WE ARE HIRING STREET CAPTAINS IN THE CRJ.

Mesa Air Group has incredible pilot opportunities for Captains and First Officers in our Canadair Regional Jet and Dash 8 fleet. We offer exceptional career advancement opportunities, a great Work/Life Balance, competitive wages and an excellent benefits package. Best of all…travel for FREE anywhere we fly! Currently we are accepting applications for both street Captains AND First Officer positions. Slots are limited so please apply online ASAP!!
Our first ground school class for street Captains is April 7, 2008 (both equipment). Our next class is being determined at this very moment.
CAPTAIN* REQUIREMENTS:
• Must have previous airline experience
• CRJ: 3500 hours total time with 500 hours jet time
• DHC-8: ATP minimums
• Commercial Pilot Certificate with Multi Engine and Instrument ratings
• Current FAA First Class Medical certificate
• Instrument current and proficient
• FCC Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit
• Current passport
• At least 21 years of age
• Legally authorized to work in the United States of America
• Willing to relocate
• Able to pass security background check and FAA mandated drug test
• High school diploma or GED
FIRST OFFICER REQUIREMENTS:
• 500 hours Total Time
• 100 hours Multi Engine Time, Fixed Wing
• Commercial Pilot Certificate with Multi Engine and Instrument ratings
• Current FAA First Class Medical certificate
• Instrument current and proficient
• FCC Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit
• Current passport
• At least 21 years of age
• Legally authorized to work in the United States of America
• Willing to relocate
• Able to pass security background check and FAA mandated drug test
• High school diploma or GED
*Captain applicants with a CRJ type rating could be eligible for a $5000 Sign-on Bonus!
For more information about our immediate pilot opportunities or to fill out an online application, please visit:
www.mesa-air.com/pilots.asphttp://www.mesa-air.com/pilots.asphttp://www.mesa-air.com/pilots.asphttp://www.mesa-air.com/pilots.asphttp://www.mesa-air.com/pilots.asp

You're kidding me right? The day I think about working for Mesa or any of it's bottom feeding abominations is the day I cut my hands off so I can't fly anymore. I'd rather flight instruct for the rest of my life then know that I contributed to the destruction of this industry.

 

[pdub20s]

You're kidding me right? The day I think about working for Mesa or any of it's bottom feeding abominations is the day I cut my hands off so I can't fly anymore. I'd rather flight instruct for the rest of my life then know that I contributed to the destruction of this industry.

suuuuuuuure.... Steak smells good dont it?

 

[IronCityBlue]

You are possibly the dumbest and most arrogant jackass to hit this board since those other two deltoid idiots....damn.

Truth hurts, doesn't it? WHat was incorrect about what I said? I even addressed t he fact that mainline pilots have dropped the ball in the past, and may continue to do so even worse in the future. While I don't think that will happen, I acknowledge that it might. And you call that arrogant.

Yet you don't see anything arrogant in someone saying that the trend of outsourcing will continue to get worse, and predicting furloughs, to strengthen their position, which is also, quite obviously, hope based.

And speaking of faster upgrade, it could be quite easily argued that there is 10 times more "upgrade angst" among outsource lift providers than there is at the legacy mainlines that they serve. Could it be you are itching for a fast upgrade? Might actually have to spend 4 or 5 years in the right seat? Oh the humanity!

You are quick to point out existing outsourcing, and then label it as an unstoppable trend. Fine, so let's point out the other side of the equation. CAL is holding fast to 51 seat and over jet scope, and they have for a long time. They could have bent over and made that concession to management anytime in the last 10 years, particularly in the last 5 years when larger RJ's have became more popular, yet they did not. Could they sell that flying down the river for a cookie? Of course. You are betting they will, I am betting they will not.

AA basically has unlimited 50 seaters and limited 70 seaters. The company desperately wanted more 70 seaters and the pilots said "nope" even though they want and deserve significant contract improvements. Did management just forget to offer them a little cookie? I doubt it. The pilots just wouldn't budge. They are making this an issue, Thank God. And outsourced flying above 70 seats: none at all. Too bad, so sad.

AirTran has I believe 20% of their block hours than can be outsourced to 70 seat and below sized aircraft. Management wanted basically unlimited 86 seaters. The pilots turned down their cookie because they refused to accept that additional gutting of scope. There were other things in their TA that were unacceptable as well, but scope is a huge issue.

So the trend is coming to a stop. Delta's fairly recent 76 seat installed scope relief and NWA's Compass deal may be the last ones you will see out of any pilot group, and I hope it is. Not for my quick upgrade, but for the sake of the entire profession. None of us, including pilots at regionals, will ever win with more and more outsourcing.

SkyWest fired the "shot heard round the world" with their "deal me an ace" deal with the devil just to get growth, and the outsourced RJ sector has been piranhas on a dead cow ever since. Yet you not only predict, but quite clearly want, that trend to not only continue but to accelerate. What's worse is that you think you may benefit from it in some way. Even worse is your attacking anyone who says it shouldn't.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Its funny when you ASA and Comair guys kiss our a$$es when it comes to trying to jumpseat when all 50 seats are full with paying passengers.... "Hey Captain, can I catch a ride with you guys? They are all full in the back."

But you mesa bashers talk sooo much $hit.... You have never heard a MESA pilot bash any other pilot group. The biggest misconception on this board is that MESA pilots bid to take other flying. When it is MGT dealings. We would like to hear you guys talk that ******************** at the flight deck door.

PS...

FOR YOU ASA,COMAIR,SKW, or any other airlines with a indefinite upgrade time.... ITS OFFICIAL..WE ARE HIRING STREET CAPTAINS IN THE CRJ.

You can't bash anyone else when your on the bottom.

As for "indefinate upgrade time"....I'd much rather stay an FO for 5 or 6 years at any of the companies you listed above, than to work as a captain at Mesa.

With the companies you listed, a 4-6 year FO will most likely make more money than being a new captain at Mesa, they get more days off, and won't have to worry about being downgraded when Mesa downsizes because of how poorly it is run.