ASA Taking Furloughed Delta Pilots?

[MetroSheriff]

Re: National Senority List

If ALPA had a national senority list this would not be an issue!!!!

And if pigs had wings....


Well they don't and ALPA doesn't. How about something a bit more constructive?

20000 hours of experience in the industry and this is the best you can do?

Go find a non-ALPA carrier if you hate them so much. NSL will never happen. Why not work for more attainable goals?

 

[ACE]

What it all comes down to is double standards. I could not go to Delta and keep my seniority number at Comair just in case I was furloughed. I don't even think the ALPA bylaws allow this (double seniority numbers). I could be wrong, I threw out all my ALPA propaganda. I would not care if DAL pilots or any furloughed pilot came to Comair, as long as seniority numbers are resigned. As a matter of fact, some furloughed pilots are at Comair. However, I would be very skeptical if DAL pilots said they were given up their numbers. Because when there are recalls those resignations could be forgotten or lost. It depends on the what kind of slimey deal the DAL MEC makes with management.

 

[Director]

Re: Re: National Senority List

And if pigs had wings....


Well they don't and ALPA doesn't. How about something a bit more constructive?

20000 hours of experience in the industry and this is the best you can do?

Go find a non-ALPA carrier if you hate them so much. NSL will never happen. Why not work for more attainable goals?

How about a change!!! There are more of us than them. It time for a NEW organization.

So quit whining and do something

www.noalpa.com

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: Re: Re: National Senority List

How about a change!!! There are more of us than them. It time for a NEW organization.

So quit whining and do something

www.noalpa.com

Ummm, I don't recall whining about anything.

 

[FlyingSig]

It depends on the what kind of slimey deal the DAL MEC makes with management.

Don't worry, DAL management will protect you. Here's what the VP of flight ops has to say about the subject:

Resignation Guidelines for Delta Pilots
4/2/02
General: Some companies have a policy that requires a pilot to resign from the pilot’s current employment as a condition of being hired at the new airline or another company. Many airlines and companies do not have such a policy. Delta will cooperate with other airlines and companies that have such a policy, with the expectation that the same consideration and professional courtesy be given to Delta in similar situations. However, it remains the responsibility of the pilot who accepts employment at another airline or company to take the required actions to comply with the resignation policy. The following are following are guidelines describing how to handle pilot resignations.
Guidelines:
All resignation letters from pilots should be submitted to Delta’s Director-FlightOperations.
Furloughed pilots are encouraged not to submit a resignation until employment has been secured and all hiring contingencies have been satisfied.
After Delta receives a resignation letter from a pilot, the pilot’s employment with Delta will be severed and the pilot will be removed from the Delta Air Lines pilot’s system seniority
list.
Note: Anyone at Delta who receives such a resignation letter must promptly forward the letter to the Director-Flight Operations. Failure to forward the letter will not preserve the pilot’s employment with Delta.

 

[MetroSheriff]

What it all comes down to is double standards. I could not go to Delta and keep my seniority number at Comair just in case I was furloughed. I don't even think the ALPA bylaws allow this (double seniority numbers). I could be wrong, I threw out all my ALPA propaganda. I would not care if DAL pilots or any furloughed pilot came to Comair, as long as seniority numbers are resigned. As a matter of fact, some furloughed pilots are at Comair. However, I would be very skeptical if DAL pilots said they were given up their numbers. Because when there are recalls those resignations could be forgotten or lost. It depends on the what kind of slimey deal the DAL MEC makes with management.

Hey ACE, take a break, huh? You are not required to be an idiot your whole life.

 

[DaveGriffin]

If only we could figure out a way to whipsaw management against each other, *sigh*. Now that would be classic!!

You have it (works great in good economic times) and ALPA crows about its success: pattern bargaining. "UAL plus" was a great example. Like any other successful tactic it doesn't always work so well when the environment changes. And the environment has definitely changed.

 

[Visceral]

On one hand, I can't figure out how it would be a good idea for any carrier to hire pilots that won't give up their seniority numbers. Since Delta doesn't seem likely to go under, all of the pilots will surely go back once they are offered a job again. If that is next week or not, nobody knows. But it seems a waste to train somebody for a job that is merely serving as a placekeeper for that person.

On the other hand, what makes that Delta pilot so different than any other pilot trying to get a job. They both will likely show a high degree of dedication and professionalism. And both would likely jump at the chance to get hired(or re-employed) by a major carrier like Delta, leaving the regional job empty.

I really don't know.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

what makes that Delta pilot so different than any other pilot trying to get a job. They both will likely show a high degree of dedication and professionalism. And both would likely jump at the chance to get hired(or re-employed) by a major carrier like Delta, leaving the regional job empty.

I really don't know.....

One difference is that they are not quitting Delta. They keep their date of hire, they keep their 401K and retirement plans without having to roll them over because Delta / Comair and ASA are the same employer in the eyes of the Internal Revenue Service. Reference the section on the "same desk rule."

In the ASA Contract opener we have asked that any WO Delta Connection pilot on furlough be given full DOH rights at ASA. It is hoped that this is a first step to protect ourselves from whipsaw. If a pilot is furloughed from Comair, they can come to ASA with their DOH.

If the Delta pilots and ALPA had done anything but try to belittle us and destroy our opportunities we would probably be doing even more to try to help them. As is, I think we did a lot because management did not want to incurr the expense of training pilots that we know we are going to lose when Delta rebounds.

 

[DaveGriffin]

I really don't know.....

Hey Darth;
Have you separated from the AF yet?

 

[Visceral]

My terminal leave starts in a week. Hopefully, Iraq behaves....

 

[bssthound]

Sinca3 said:

So since when did pilots at ASA (DCI) have a say in who is hired and whether or not they keep their senority number??????

Great point, S3. I don't recall being asked anything about it. I am happy that the guys who need jobs are able to come over, though. Like I said before, several guys in my Reserve unit are either furloughed or about to be. It hits home when you know folks. Besides, who knows who among us will be furloughed in the decades to come?? I figure I'll wear the shoe on the other foot sooner or later.

 

[surplus1]

Great point, S3. I don't recall being asked anything about it. I am happy that the guys who need jobs are able to come over, though. Like I said before, several guys in my Reserve unit are either furloughed or about to be. It hits home when you know folks. Besides, who knows who among us will be furloughed in the decades to come?? I figure I'll wear the shoe on the other foot sooner or later.

While you weren't "asked" it is probable that your elected leaders voiced their opinions anyway. Perhaps they were listened to, perhaps not.

It is quite true that the day may come in the future when you or those who work where you are now may be furloughed. The most interesting part of your statement seems to be the idea that you believe that if you are "helpful" or sympathetic to those that are furloughed today, you anticipate some form of reciprocity should it happen to you tomorrow.

While that's a noble thought, I think you'll discover that if it does happen and the tables are turned, you'll soon learn that those you support today will not remember and won't give you or your fellows the time of day. They will readily find a thousand reasons to remind you that you are not qualified to join their ranks for one reason or another, including the possibility that it might prevent one of their "friends" from being hired off the street.

Charity should begin at home but you seem to have missed the fact that you are only considered to be a member of the "family" when other real members have a need and you have something they want. In good times, you're not even acknowledged as a step relative.

Sometimes one should see things as they are rather than how we might like them to be. Give all you want but expect nothing in return for you wont get it from that source. If they could find a way to displace you now, don't kid yourself, it would be done in nothing flat without the slightest concern for who might be furloughed or displaced on "your side" of the created fence. They have already made it clear that what you do is really there's and you have no right to it. Wake up man.

It's nice to be nice, but there should be a limit to naivete.

"If you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you."
- Benjamin Franklin-

 

[FL000]

While that's a noble thought, I think you'll discover that if it does happen and the tables are turned, you'll soon discover that those you support today wont give you or your fellows the time of day. They will readily find a thousand reasons to remind you that you are not qualified to join their ranks for one reason or another, including the possibility that it might prevent one of their "friends" from being hired off the street.

This is simple negativity, and whether your assessment of how Delta pilots treat you is real or perceived doesn't really matter. Your poor attitude would be the root cause of either.

Delta was hiring ASA pilots like wildfire before things went south. You overlook the fact that many of us ARE their friends. Before the freeze, I was being offered help to get in the door from both former ASA folk and those who had no connection to ASA. Hell, I even had some Delta jumpseaters whom I'd never before met offering their phone numbers to call them for help when the time came. You see Surplus, those are the kinds of things that happen when you are professional and have a good attitude. It's not about a$$-kissing. It's about who you are.

I don't expect you to soak this in and change your ways. I'm quite certain it will go in one ear and out the other. Some people just don't ever get it.

 

[tbkane]

Surplus 1, Ace, and others at Comair,

I just was thinking about all that you did for us while on strike. It may not have been you personally but a bunch of striking Comair pilots all went to Exec Jet, and as soon as the strike was over they left Exec Jet like a hot potatoe.

This to me would be exactly what your preaching against. They should have given up their seniority at Comair in order to go to Exec Jet, but didn't, and now Exec Jet won't hire any furloughed pilots now thanks once again to the prince's at Comair who always want the cake and eat it to.

I for one would love to fly for Exec Jet for a couple of years, but thanks to those selfless Comair pilots, they now require resignation. This I will not do.

Thanks for everything, and I am so glad I paid my strike assessment.

 

[bssthound]

According to Surplus1:

"If you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you."
- Benjamin Franklin-

I guess that makes me a sheep and you a wolf: eat me . . . .


Seriously, I see the validity of your point. I learned very quickly that the airline is not the squadron and there is no real camaraderie. It is a job, I'm a number, and I certainly don't expect anyone to take any pity on me. If I get furloughed I'll get by on my own. I can understand where you might assume from my post I expect some sort of equal treatment from another pilot group that has no say in who management hires should I ever be furloughed. Not so; I've taken care of myself for many years and can continue to do so without any help, thank you.

 

[surplus1]

bssthound

You're right, it's not the squadron and there IS no camaraderie. Sad maybe but true none the less.

I can understand where you might assume from my post I expect some sort of equal treatment from another pilot group that has no say in who management hires should I ever be furloughed.

Actually I didn't assume it but I did presume it, given that's essentially what you wrote, i.e., a presumption of reciprocity. After you've been in this end (airline) of the business you will learn how things really work. It aint pretty.

One thing though, you have great taste in dogs so there's abviously a lot about you that's right. I'll defer to that wisdom.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus 1, Ace, and others at Comair,

I just was thinking about all that you did for us while on strike. It may not have been you personally but a bunch of striking Comair pilots all went to Exec Jet, and as soon as the strike was over they left Exec Jet like a hot potatoe.

It happens I wasn't one of them. It also happens I don't think too highly of those that did, not because the came back but because the left under fire.

Sorry it makes things rough for you. Am I to assume that if you went to Exec Jet and Delta recalled you 3 months later you would stay at Exec Jet because you felt it might in the future jeopardize the job possibilities of a furloughed UAL pilot? Candidly, that's BS. You'd leave in a heartbeat and you know it.

Play that line with some kid that's panting for a job, but spare me the BS please.

Thanks for everything, and I am so glad I paid my strike assessment.

Obviously you aren't glad so why did you do it? You could have refused just like hundreds of your fellows did while EAL was on strike.

For those who gave willingly I am grateful. For those with your attitude I am not. I wish you'd kept your money. Why don't you ask your union for a refund?

 

[tbkane]

Surplus 1

I did it because we are all one union and Comair was due theirs. With your atitude toward Dal pilots, and how you feel about seniority I am now not happy I did. I would not request a payback, but I will give you my address to send a check as your not happy I gave.

PS. I would gladly sign a two year commitment to any fractional hiring, and I would carry out my commitment unlike those that left. That being said it is not an option anymore due to a select number from Comair.

I am glad to hear at least it was not you.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus 1

I did it because we are all one union and Comair was due theirs.

Too bad we're not "all one union" all of the time. Seems that only applies when its convenient for you?

With your atitude toward Dal pilots, and how you feel about seniority I am now not happy I did.

The truth is my attitude toward DAL pilots is identical to the attitude of DAL pilots towards me. As for how I feel about seniority that's pretty simple, my seniority is just as valuable as yours. No more, no less. If that makes you unhappy, I make no apologies.

What you all don't seem to understand is that being a DAL pilot is really no different than being any other kind of pilot, including CMR. You are not entitled to any special defference and neither am I. We are equals. As soon as you get that message we'll have no problems.

You owe me nothing and I owe you nothing. I'm all for anything we agree to do together but I do not accept that you have any "superior" rights to mine and never will. If you can't deal with that, then we can't deal.

BTW, if there's anyone that needs an attitude adjustment it's your group of people with about 4 years and less at DAL. Most Delta pilots that have been there for some time are pretty decent people. Your group isn't doing them any favors.

I would not request a payback, but I will give you my address to send a check as your not happy I gave.

You're worrying about MY attitude? Seems you think you're entitled to something special because you paid a mandatory assessment. Well, I've paid a lot of mandatory assessments in my time too and I'm not entitled to anything because of it. Neither are you.

Keep in mind that a lot of other pilots paid assessments too. In addition, we got lots of non-mandatory donations from thousands of pilots, most of whom were NOT Delta. As a matter of fact, we got nearly as much from American pilots alone as we got from all ALPA pilots combined. They have never reminded us of their generousity as you and your peers do. I wonder why that is?

You never see UAL, NWA, AAA or any other groups that paid or gave voluntarily reminding us of what they paid or what they gave. That is uniquely Delta. You don't just do it to CMR, you do it to everyone and have been doing it for the last 25 years. Maybe you haven't been around long enough to know that but I have.

PS. I would gladly sign a two year commitment to any fractional hiring, and I would carry out my commitment unlike those that left. That being said it is not an option anymore due to a select number from Comair. I am glad to hear at least it was not you.

I'm sorry you can't get what you want at EJA but don't blame it on CMR pilots. Try somewhere else. Go fly for JBlue or SWA or ALA or AAI. Maybe they will give you a number and let you keep the one you have now. Maybe you can get on at ASA or ACA or Mesa or SKYW or CHQ or Net Jets. I hear they'll take you with your number.

Good luck and hopefully things will turn around and you can be recalled sooner that later.

 

[DAL737FO]

Actually he can blame it on the CMR pilots. I'm still good friends with a lot of people at EJA/Netjets. I had an open invitation to come back if times got hard. The comair strike changed that. It's not because the comair guys/gals left when the strike was over it's because they tried to get out of their training contracts once they left. Then it becomes a legal battle.

As for your statement about the guys at DAL mainline with 4 years or less, well I guess I could make the same assinine statement about the senior guys at COM/ASA having attitude problems.

I hope this all works out in the end, however I think it will get uglier before it gets better.

fly safe

 

[bssthound]

Surplus1 wrote:
Actually I didn't assume it but I did presume it, given that's essentially what you wrote, i.e., a presumption of reciprocity.

You're right. After rereading my post that's exactly how it sounds. Bad on me for not being clear. Hope I didn't sound too "thenthitive."

After you've been in this end (airline) of the business you will learn how things really work. It aint pretty.

Yeah, after a short time it's become pretty clear that each of us is the "One Musketeer."

One thing though, you have great taste in dogs so there's abviously a lot about you that's right. I'll defer to that wisdom.

Flattery will get you everywhere!! You'd be surprised how many basset hound fans have PM'd me.