ASA:Sorry State

[DDpaysoff]

Anybody go to ATL this weekend?

Wow, apparently after the bashing article middle managers had a knee jerk reaction and went off on day-to-day employees. So the excuse I heard all weekend was that 50 rampers quit on Friday. That is some managment. I am sure somebody will disagree w/ me, but I don't beleive ASA has the infastructure in place to run a descent operation there. Can't keep blaming the troops, that is rediculous.

I am starting to feel sorry for the rampers, they are dealing w/ inadequate managment and infastructure. They basically run around all day like their heads are cut off and service these airplanes, they don't know what to do until somebody yells at them. The other night we had a turn there and the whole operation acted as if they did not know we were coming, like they were surprised. Don't give me that demographics crap, we are talking about working airplanes not a master thesis. Given the turnover there you expect them to eventually get a descent ramper there. No organization!

Pilots and FA's are great, but your mgmt. is, oh well nevermind I am probably preaching to the choir. In a perfect world ASA and CMR pilots and FA's would join and ASA mgmt. would be dropped. DAL would have something great, but because they are so terrified of 2800 pilots negotiating at the same time we have to work for an airline that plays not to lose, instead of to win.

The bottom line is we are all here to make our customers, stockholders and employees happy. Are any of them happy right now, LEO? Maybe, it is time to bite the bullit?

No, just give more bonuses to the people that are keeping everybody so happy right now. Unbelievable.

 

[FL000]

Re: Anybody go to ATL this weekend?

Don't give me that demographics crap

"Demographics" is the difference between having proactive rampers and inactive rampers. Proactive rampers, if they exist (Walt), would get the job done regardless of what management throws their way.

Look at the pilot demographic. Management isn't out there stroking us every day, but we get the d@mn job done.

 

[DDpaysoff]

You get the job done, because you have well trained professional captains who can coordinate (manage) in a crew environment to safely compete a flight. Sure, you don't have the best ramp potential in the world but your crop, so to speak is not that different then the folks at Airtran or LUV. If your people don't know what to do or why they should do something that is mgmt's. fault. But, my argument is mostly infastructure. When we need catering or fuel etc. we can call ops or find a coordinator. Then what happens. Well, the FCC might as well take back 129.0 and 130.32 because the frequency is useless. The only thing that person has the authority to do is input times. When you ask them a question, they do not have the tools or communications ability to get you a prompt answer. Let's look at the working conditions of the person to whom we are talking to. What does their workstation look like, simple ergonomics can go a long way. How about workload? What about the tools they use, is their computer up to current technology, is there an efficient way to pick up the phone, dial a number and get another supervisor on line right away. What about the person they are calling? Are you looking to fill that position with people that actually have the skills neccesary to operate well in that type of environment? If not do you have somone w/ enough experience or the proper skillset above him/her to identify the problem and fix it? Does that person have the tools to identify the problem or are they overloaded or in a position where they do not have the tools or skills to identify such a problem. What about that persons superior? Can they identify potential leaders?
This can go on and on, and probably has.

To manage is to create a structure, provide tools and motivate individuals to acheive conformance. I don't know about the motivation, you can argue that but I am positive based on things that I see there that the structure and tools are inadequate. As a business oriented idividual I believe to attack this problem one should identify where the structure is weak and rebuild it w/ new leadership

 

[FL000]

I agree with you on all points. My only point was that, even without the goods, a proactive worker will find a way to get the job done. All they really have to do is push us or park us. Most of the rest we can improvise.

 

[DDpaysoff]

I agree w/ that. If there is one thing those rampers certainly are not it is proactive. See you around.

 

[Ralph]

It has to do with pay to some extent but more so with the work environment.

If a worker feels that he has no control over his work environment then the result is apathy.

Basically if your worker thinks something along the lines of "no matter what I do I'm screwed" then the worker will just show up and try to not get fired.

If the worker thinks that rewards and punishments are largely arbitrary or guided by a system which he has no control over then the result is apathy.

If employee A (that’s me right now) thinks, I might get a letter of commendation and I might get fired and nothing I’m doing will have an affect on that then employee A will develop a very bad attitude about work. That gets passed right on to the customer.

Conversely, if employee A thinks suggestions that will make his workplace flow smother will be headed and good service is rewarded then employee A has a reason to be a good employee, a happy worker, and customers will see that as well.

I agree pay is not that important, it is to some extent, but a respectful working environment is even more important.

I’m employee A. Its 10:45 and I’m going home for lunch. I’ll be back at 1:30 and then leave for the day at 4:00. “Its not that I’m lazy, its just that I don’t care”

 

[captainv]

ASA rampers

At Comair, we have an in-house complaint system we use to report problems on the line. it takes forever, but you actually get a written response from a supervisor. I recently heard from the chief pilot that of 280+ write-ups currently in the system, half are about ATL. i've got 7 to write about a recent 4-day trip, 5 concerning ATL.

i hear rumors (more like prayers) that if we open an ATL base, we will get our own ramp workers. surely they'll have to TDY them from Cincy to start with, and i'll be interested to see if they can find better people from the Atlanta area.

a gate agent told me that during a nasty thunderstorm this spring, dozens of ASA ramp workers simply left the airport and went home, prefering not to work during the storm. were they fired? nope - who would replace them?

the only way to fix it is to give them better pay to atttract better workers. you don't see these problems with any of the other ATL tenants.

 

[ProLine4]

ATL ramp pay?

At Comair, we have an in-house complaint system we use to report problems on the line. it takes forever, but you actually get a written response from a supervisor. I recently heard from the chief pilot that of 280+ write-ups currently in the system, half are about ATL. i've got 7 to write about a recent 4-day trip, 5 concerning ATL.

i hear rumors (more like prayers) that if we open an ATL base, we will get our own ramp workers. surely they'll have to TDY them from Cincy to start with, and i'll be interested to see if they can find better people from the Atlanta area.

a gate agent told me that during a nasty thunderstorm this spring, dozens of ASA ramp workers simply left the airport and went home, prefering not to work during the storm. were they fired? nope - who would replace them?

the only way to fix it is to give them better pay to atttract better workers. you don't see these problems with any of the other ATL tenants.

Just wondering, does anyone know how the pay of ATL EV rampers compares to some of the other ATL tenants? I think the guys at US and FL seem to do a good job, and most at DL mainline.

 

[Huck]

Anybody else remember the ramp "B scale" at ASA, around 1995? The head of ramp ops had a great idea. All new rampers were paid minimum wage (rather than ~2 dollars above it, like the old guys.)

Literally we started taking work-release guys. F/A's started refusing to walk across the ramp at night alone. There was a pile of empty liquour kits at the Marta station - they called the airline to come pick them up.

The very best: somebody drove a tug off the property and tried to pawn it. I'm not making this up.

The word went out to not bother calling ops until your bags were at LEAST an hour late.

As an aside - around that time, we started the BAe-146 program, and all pilots were limited to high-min landings as per the FAA until we had been operating awhile. Chatanooga was cancelled for days - and Delta had just pulled out and given it to us.

Around that time, one of our portly captains ("Beeyul J.")was literally chased down the concourse by an angry mob after their flight was cancelled.

Ah... good times....

 

[Old Crow]

ASA has potential.
Due to the "culture" of just getting by attitude that has existed there for the majority of ASA history, the middle managers must go. Fire at will and let's get to work with a new culture of people with a little respect for the passengers. Our pilot group is one of the best groups of people in the industry. Pilots care about their passengers and their personal professionalism. That is the only reason this airline continues to exist.
Mr. Barnett, the boys and girls in the silver palace need to stop looking and numbers on paper and get their hands dirty. Come over to the airport, motivate your employees, make yourself a part of the people who work for you.

Spirit, Service, Pride?

Pride is defined as a sence of elation of an act. I give 110% everytime I go to work but might as well have hand cuffs locked to my wrists. This is the case with every flight crew at ASA. We want to be the best, we want to wear those "Pride" T-shirts, We have the vision, but we are made fools of day to day with what we have to work with.

Concerned ASA employee

 

[JTrain]

I sympathize a lot with the ASA pilots, whose airline is being tarnished by their ramp situation.

As an ACAer, I can definitely relate though; some of the post about your ATL ramp sound a lot like some of the stories I've heard about our ORD hub, or seen in person at our IAD operation.

As much as the situation sucks, thats just the way things are. Comparing again our IAD and ORD United Express hubs, both are super-expensive cities to live in where it is going to be hard to find somebody to chuck bags and marshall airplanes for minimal pay. ACA has found a few in IAD - Sgt. Dan, Matthew, the guy with white hair (many Blue Ridgers will recognize them), however most of our rampers turn over at an alarming rate, and I suspect this is just an unfortunate cost of doing business in the places where we hub. But, put yourself in some of the rampers' shoes; I don't know how I could afford to live within a 1hr drive radius and maintain a decent QOL on what the job pays. Occasionally, you will find sharp motivated people in thejob (e.g. flight students looking to work their way in and end up as a pilot) and these peopl are recognized and apprciated, but I imagine it's a tough challenge that ACA managemnt will have to overcome as we move towards Project Independence.

Having flown on both the UAX and DCI sides of ACA, I've also had the perspectives of flying thru LGA, BOS and CVG. CVG is a well-oiled machine run by Comair, however, just contrast the area to ATL, IAD, ORD and it is much easier to attract quality people in all aspects of the service/gate agent/ramper operation. CVG/Northern KY is an extrmely cheap area to live with a sizable population base within a quick drive to th airport. As Comair expands beyond CVG to ATL, DFW, LGA, DCA, etc, they've found it challenging from what I've heard, dealing with environment, since it's not always as easy, comparatively speakin, as CVG.

Thats my 2cents

JT

jt

 

[Palerider957]

I flew through CVG the other night, and I can see why the Comair drivers are freaked out in ATL. At CVG you have your OWN terminal with all of the services (ground power, aircarts) nearby. This ramp was constructed for RJ's. Also, CVG doesn't do anywhere near the volume of ATL.

In ATL, our gates were made for Eastern Airlines, with heavy iron in mind. When RJ's came along, serious (and only partially successful) adaptation had to be done.

Yeah, our rampers suck, but the earlier posters are correct. What do you expect from these people. This is hardly their life-long ambition. At the base of the ASA GO is the probation and parole office. These people meet with their parole officers, are told to get a fuc'kin job, then the march up the the 3rd floor looking for applications.....it's a systemic problem that is not going to go away.

What is needed here is a serious infusion of leadership, and change of management style. IMHO....

 

[Duke Lefty]

Being Pro-active

I have flown to many airports around this great land, but few get my dander up like ATL. The closest comparison that I have is the old Philadelphia commuter ramp for US Airways. It was there that I witnessed a ramper standing on someones luggage to load the cargo hold. There are many other "entertaining" stories that could fill a new string if we took the time. Anyone else??

My last trip that I flew took me through ATL a few times and the inefficiencies are mind-boggling. In fact, in six legs of flying, we were on-time only two of those flights. What I could not believe was that we accepted an aircraft that had no APU, and the station knew that a power cart, huffer and A/C carts would be needed upon arrival. It took five trips to the departure coordinator and several calls to ops to get everything to the aircraft and hooked up. We could see the equipment that was needed. We could also see the lounging rampers who were staring up at us in the cockpit. Don't even get me started with the caterers either. The whole place went on report. PATHETIC!

Here is something that is interesting, and sure to draw some scorn from rampers and flight crews alike: Shaming rampers into work. No, it is not an uplifting and positive approach to our woes, but I am sick of hearing flight crews having to sincerely apologize for such terrible service day in and day out to the people who buy tickets to fly on our planes. I need the passenger and hope for 50 satisfied customers every flight.

I know of a captain that made numerous calls to ops in ATL to get a meet and assist for a passenger needing a wheelchair. Finally, he went himself to the meet and assist area down near gate 28/29 and got a wheelchair himself to escort their passenger to their next flight. Guess how fast the people who had been ignoring the calls jumped up from their game of dominoes? They chased the captain half way to the aircraft trying to get him to turn loose of the wheelchair. The meet and assist bunch did not want to have others seeing a pilot do their job. The pilot did the right thing. He exposed the failure of the meet and assist agents, AND more importantly, he took care of the customer.

Not that I want to have to chase down wheelchairs or clean my own windshields or go and do other tasks beyond what keeps me busy, but it does send a message to the slacker and hopefully their bosses alike.

Let me say that there are those workers who DO perform their jobs well on the ramp and deserve credit. I know when we pull up to a spot and I see one of those people ready to marshal us in, that we are going to be well treated and that things should go smoothly.

Bottom line: Hire people with some ambition, and pay them like they make a difference to the operation. They may have to come from the other side of town and not Virginia Ave., but it would be worth their while. Underachievers can wait in line at the unemployment office as we have a business to run.

 

[General Lee]

I was non-reving on ASA once to Panama City, FL and saw a passenger CHOKING an ASA gate agent. He was wrestled to the floor by the police and taken away, but everyone was clapping. It was kinda funny.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Palerider957]

ROFLMAO!!! General, you're killing me!

I'm amazed this scene is not repeated daily in ATL...

I guess I shouldn't laugh at felonious bahaviour, but the former city cop in me still get's a chuckle out of anarchy.

 

[General Lee]

Yeah, it was hard to believe what I was seeing. The gate agent gave some "attitude" to the pax, and he started to choke him. It was crazy. But, he was ok afterwards, and probably didn't give as much "lip" after that---which is the way it was supposed to be in the first place.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CF34-3B1]

The situation on the ramp in ATL will not change.

DAL has owned ASA for HOW many years now? If Leo wanted it to change, it would have by now.

The reality is that in ATL, ASA ramper pay gets you a very specific type of employee, and a very specific level of performance. You get what you pay for.

Skip isn't going to pay 1 single cent more to rampers than he does now without Leo's say so, and Leo ain't sayin' so.

Things are the way they are because the spreadsheets on Virginia Ave say so.

If you don't like it, bid DFW.

At least the rampers there don't look at you like you owe them something.

 

[rjcap]

I was non-reving on ASA once to Panama City, FL and saw a passenger CHOKING an ASA gate agent. He was wrestled to the floor by the police and taken away, but everyone was clapping. It was kinda funny.

I would pay cash to see that !

 

[Daydreamer]

ASA gate agent

good evening, everyone:

When I saw this post, I culd not stop myself for replying. I was also on non rev. flight through ATL. I told gate agents for 5 times to put my name on waiting list. Well, they say my name is on the standby list for last flight to my destination. Well, plane comes, I saw they wait for awhile for meet and see people for an eldery gentleman about 15 minutes. Those people are slow for their job requirement.

The gate agent was giving a little altitude toward to me. After all rev. passenger boarded, I asked gate agent is any seat available. She said yes, but I was not the standby list. Therefore, I could not get on that flight with 5 seats available (I found out I was only one on standby list). Till other gate agent pull me to another counter and print out board pass God bless the nice lady). Otherwise, I would spend a night at ATL.

I may not understand aviation industry at all. But who is going to buy ticket and dealing with rotten agent.


Daydreamer

 

[ReportCanoa]

Congratulations! It seems you've just qualified yourself for a job either on our ramp, or as a Customer Service Agent. Good luck....