ASA PBS = No more CDO's

[E120ASA]

Problem is, Papazolio is drooling all over himself because you clowns are gonna be working as many days as he is. The GO really would prefer everyone flying 3:52, seven days per week. 'Cause hey- it's only fair... They HATE pilots and that's the bottom line. Everyone does. I say %$^( them and fly safely.

You have hit the nail on the head. This is what it is all about...

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Why would everybody flying guarantee be the cheapest solution for mgmt? Throw in ancillary costs per pilot like health care, parking, badges, retirement and most of all training and you'd think they'd want to work every pilot flying 100 hour block months while crediting as close to 100hrs as possible.

Hence understaffing.

And PBS is not the problem, it's the pairings! (I figured I'd say it too)

 

[aircombat]

...How would a line bidding system have better trips in it, or would all the lines be 12-13 days off with 75 hrs of credit pre-built into them? I'm not arguing, I want to be educated so I can join your side.

How many pairings were there per month pre PBS compared to now? If there are significantly more then with the same amount of flying there would be less credit per pairing.
This IS a direct result of PBS and it's so called efficiencies. They can fit in pairings with regular line holders were they couldn't before and they can create more lines due to the lack of need for so many reserves.
I'm not so sure about the CDOs they could be gone also because of PBS/current staffing or it could be they cost the company too much but I just have one question about that. Why didn't they get rid of CDO's a long time ago? And also about the low credit pairings, if it was because of the short leg length then why didn't the ATR have low credit lines?

 

[damnflyboy]

We should start a thread for all of the aspiring airline pilots out there called "You've been warned". Simply put, it's a list all of the ways we've been raped by the industry over the years.

 

[777forever]

And also about the low credit pairings, if it was because of the short leg length then why didn't the ATR have low credit lines?

The ATR is much much slower than the jet. 17 hr 200 trips equal 20-22 hr ATR trips. MYR-ATL or GNV-ATL were longhauls on the ATR.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

The ATR is much much slower than the jet. 17 hr 200 trips equal 20-22 hr ATR trips. MYR-ATL or GNV-ATL were longhauls on the ATR.

When I flew the ATR at ASA, the ATR block times were only about 10-15 minutes longer per leg than the jet to places like VPS, PFN, and MGM. Not sure how you come up with 3-5 hours per trip. Just saying.

 

[777forever]

When I flew the ATR at ASA, the ATR block times were only about 10-15 minutes longer per leg than the jet to places like VPS, PFN, and MGM. Not sure how you come up with 3-5 hours per trip. Just saying.

Ok. Lets say their are 16 legs in an average 4 day trip(4 legs a day). 16 legs x15 minutes extra per leg= 240 min extra pay per trip = 4 hours

4 hrs added to each pairing in March would definitely help some schedules get complete don't ya think?

Here's some hard numbers I just looked up from past trips.

ATL-GNV was blocked at 1:40 on the ATR, and 1:15 on the 200. I know the numbers fluctuate depending on the time of day etc etc, but for the most part the most numbers will still show the jet faster by a considerable margin.

 

[crj567]

Ok. Lets say their are 16 legs in an average 4 day trip(4 legs a day). 16 legs x15 minutes extra per leg= 240 min extra pay per trip = 4 hours

4 hrs added to each pairing in March would definitely help some schedules get complete don't ya think?

Here's some hard numbers I just looked up from past trips.

ATL-GNV was blocked at 1:40 on the ATR, and 1:15 on the 200. I know the numbers fluctuate depending on the time of day etc etc, but for the most part the most numbers will still show the jet faster by a considerable margin.

Here is a hint:

We had tons of NAPS! Also, lots of DAY LINES, and even TWO DAYS, even the much-fabled THREE DAY TRIP! Stage length is a smokescreen. The distribution of pairings is a much more important issue. Leaving the task of pairing construction and distribution of trips completely up to the company was a huge, glaring hole they could have driven the Queen Mary through.

-The new clowns think naps are too expensive. So we all get to take it high and hard. PBS is crap without a good cross-section of trips to make it all work out.

-Once again, you are missing the forest for the trees, 777. The entire spectrum of trips we fly, and the way the are distributed his changed drastically, (and more based on our new mgmt's hatred of naps) and we sure will pay the price by letting them "go live" right up our asses on this one. The trips we have for March are incompatible with a decent PBS solution, no matter who has "learned to bid" and who hasn't. I think it will be one heck of a mess for an awful lot of our list.

 

[79%N1]

And BH says he is going to look into it and see that it gets fixed, yet...........................?????????

March = EPIC MELTDOWN

 

[crj567]

To say the least!!

 

[Redan]

All these parameters are of no value if the company is allowed to design impossible pairings. Saying that "this is not a PBS. problem" is irrelevant. What matters is how this situation can affect our QOL. The source of our troubles now is not the PBS system per se, but it is the fact that the company can build whatever horrible trips it wants, with no trip rigs or effective restrictions whatsoever.

People are starting to really realize what kind of corner we have painted ourselves into. Without decent pairings, we can all effectively be turned into defacto reserves. The company can literally design pairings with such low credit that not one of us would be able to complete a schedule without dropping to min days off. It can get that bad!

Signing any PBS agreement without effective controls on pairing construction was the worst mistake our pilot group has ever made. The more people understand about the power gave the company, and the extent to which it can (and will) be abused, the more angry they will get. This situation is definitely not the kind of scenario we were sold, but it is exactly what more than a few of us tried to warn everyone about.

Many still are deluding themselves that "this isn't the fault of PBS." They are partially correct, just as CRJ567 keeps telling us. It's largely the fault of the agreement which brought us PBS with it's weak contract language allowing company carte blanche to exploit the PBS system. Many warned of this danger during the vote, but we bought it hook line and sinker, as sold to us by our stalwart elected used car salesmen.

It's so lovely to log on and read posts such as this one from one of our uber-senior "gentlemen":

did 3 days in January, same pairing every week, and was blocked, not credited, at 18:00. So me thinks it can be done but then you have pilots whining about 5-6 leg days. If I can get 4 days off after a 3 day, works for me!

Hoser
ROLL TIDE!
GB PACKERS - World Champions!

Thank you so much for your insightful observations Hoser. While you're gloating, the majority of your colleagues are taking it up the keister. And then there are the truly insightful comments such as this one:


Originally Posted by Oakum_Boy
"Problem is, Papazolio is drooling all over himself because you clowns are gonna be working as many days as he is. The GO really would prefer everyone flying 3:52, seven days per week. 'Cause hey- it's only fair... They HATE pilots and that's the bottom line. Everyone does. I say %$^( them and fly safely."


(This thing won't let me disable italics for some reason, but Redan follows):

Thank you Oakum, at least a few of us get it. Is there anyone who doubts what our management is capable of? Many of us have warned that they will be right there to exploit every weakness in the PBS agreement post haste. And what have they done? Right off the bat last month they tried this with the lines. Now again this month with their "soft costs" initiative. Remind you of how it's been since Contract '07? Was pretty nice briefly until they found ways to exploit every bit of weak contract language brought to us by our MEC Mensas. When you've been on reserve as long as I have you get to experience what it's like to deal with managers utterly devoid of conscience.

Who among us really believes last year's fiasco was a mistake??? REALLY??? And so many of us bought the "Apology." OMG. Prepare to relive it. Many warned us that BH would arrive, make friends with everyone and sell himself as the nice guy...then systematically chip away at our QOL until there was nothing left. He's done exactly as predicted and yet so many of us are such BH cheerleaders, "Oh BH, it's so much nicer since you got here." After last summer's meltdown there were still pilots posting here, on ALPA board and on OurASA to that effect. Made me spew chunks.

Now here we are, dealing with a PBS agreement allowing company virtually unlimited latitude over pairing construction..."garbage in, garbage out," just as predicted. And praying that our new XJET brothers and sisters can save us from our own stupidity. Regarding our company, I've heard over and over: "do they think we're stupid?" The short answer is: YES!!! We prove it again and again by allowing ourselves to constantly exploited and abused in the name of "competitiveness" thereby giving company tacit consent to continue to lower the bar. Other comments I've heard are to the effect: "Hold steady, tow the line and keep your eye on the prize" as if something down the road is going to happen to make our lives better by virtue of us locking step with company. But do people really believe this? Really??? THEY ARE LOWERING THE BAR EXPONENTIALLY!!! With our help. My question is: ARE WE REALLY WILLING TO ACCEPT THIS??? and WHAT THE HALE ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT???

 

[601Pilot]

Pairings with PBS

How many pairings were there per month pre PBS compared to now? If there are significantly more then with the same amount of flying there would be less credit per pairing.
This IS a direct result of PBS and it's so called efficiencies. They can fit in pairings with regular line holders were they couldn't before and they can create more lines due to the lack of need for so many reserves.
I'm not so sure about the CDOs they could be gone also because of PBS/current staffing or it could be they cost the company too much but I just have one question about that. Why didn't they get rid of CDO's a long time ago? And also about the low credit pairings, if it was because of the short leg length then why didn't the ATR have low credit lines?

The problem has always been in the generation of pairings. Unfortunately, with PBS, the company has much more time to tweak the pairings to match their cost controls. With line bidding, they had to generate pairings and the lines, now they have a few extra days to mess with the pairings. Since we didn't require a set percentage for EACH trip type, we are getting screwed with PBS. If you are a current ALPA rep, I would get ready to fly the line, as your days in that office are numbered.

 

[Medeco]

Flica is showing the close of bid time pushed back to the 16th at noon.

 

[IFLYASA]

If they run the lines again, it will be impossible for everyone to resubmit thier bids by noon tomorrow. I'm not sure what's up yet.

 

[HoserASA]

Thank you so much for your insightful observations Hoser. While you're gloating, the majority of your colleagues are taking it up the keister.

Didn't mean to be "gloating". I was just saying as recently as last month they made productive pairings. Which to me means they still can.

Hoser
ROLL TIDE!

 

[wms]

The problem is not PBS, it's the company's typical abuse of what could be a good thing for everyone. If they don't want a meltdown and a no vote in the jcba they'll fix it fast. db and jp probably single-handedly shot down any chance of PBS passing in the jcba and they should be terminated for doing such harm to the company. My prediction is march will be a perfect storm. The ones responsible, db and jp should be disposed of quickly.

 

[wms]

If it was a PBS issue the Feb skds would not be good. I heard from the union that the company agreed to use a new pairing generator in the future that ALPA offered to purchase.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

So they're going to use MY dues to buy software for the company?? What? Oh *&$$ no..

 

[wms]

We also complain that our dues never get put to good use, now...

 

[Nevets]

We also complain that our dues never get put to good use, now...

Two wrongs don't make a right though.