ASA PBS = No more CDO's

[cybourg10]

We also were making money hand over fist prior to the Delta rate reset.

What were ASA's margins before and what are they now?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Complain as much as you want, but this is not due to PBS.

The BIG issue is that prior to PBS your company carried the responsibility of constructing decent lines for you. Now with PBS, it is your responsibility to construct lines out of the ever worsening pairings being produced by the company. If your schedule doesn't turn out, the company can now point the finger at you and the parameters that you put into PBS. There is NO incentive for the company to produce decent pairings like they had to prior to PBS. It is an aweful system. Trust me, I dealt with PBS for quite a few years at SkyWest and know what I am talking about.

 

[mxaviator]

That email from JP makes me want to lose it,
"Thank you for your patience and for your continued efforts to run a safe, high-quality operation"

I think the quality of the operation should directly reflective of our quality of life. No more CI, A14, D0, etc. I've just lost any motivation to come to work and give 100%.

 

[Freebrd]

That email from JP makes me want to lose it,
"Thank you for your patience and for your continued efforts to run a safe, high-quality operation"

I think the quality of the operation should directly reflective of our quality of life. No more CI, A14, D0, etc. I've just lost any motivation to come to work and give 100%.

yep, door closed BUT brake STILL ON! No favors no mo! lets see where we fall on the next 'on time, most improved' listing

 

[southern cross 7]

Thanks for making the pairings the miserable trips I've seen to date Papalooser! the idea of flying my schedule next month is already giving me IBS.

 

[crj567]

That email from JP makes me want to lose it,
"Thank you for your patience and for your continued efforts to run a safe, high-quality operation"

I think the quality of the operation should directly reflective of our quality of life. No more CI, A14, D0, etc. I've just lost any motivation to come to work and give 100%.

I've lost my motivation to come in and give 20%....

-Let the wheels come off the bus. Maybe that will raise the right eyebrows.

 

[OCP]

I don't remember an email from JP that didn't make me want to burn the place down. His BS killed me for the last few years on reserve and now this? Done. I liked PBS, but if this is the game, I'm done.

 

[crj567]

17x4=68

The credit window low is 67. Hardly anyone will get min days off. Everyone will be at min guarantee yes but if you set your personal credit threshold at 60 your schedule will be complete once you hit 67. Most should be able to get 13-15 days off.

I do agree we need trip rigs though

BTW, you learn how to bid yet?

We will see... I would suspect only the really top people, and those who "know how to bid" will see 13 to 15 days off. It will be hard to complete a schedule with such crap.

-I would venture a guess that I know how to bid as well as most. I would also venture a guess that folks will really, really get pissed when they see the results of this run. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the relatively small number of trips with acceptable credit will result in a lot of folks who will have no chair when the music stops.

-Fly safe, and stay thirsty, my friends.

 

[FL990]

17x4=68

The credit window low is 67. Hardly anyone will get min days off. Everyone will be at min guarantee yes but if you set your personal credit threshold at 60 your schedule will be complete once you hit 67. Most should be able to get 13-15 days off.

I do agree we need trip rigs though

BTW, you learn how to bid yet?

Thats not entirely true....

You cannot just look at the bottom of the window...you have to look at what they need on average for each pilot to fly to cover there block hours. They lowered the window to 67 hrs, but the TLV is at 90 hrs. If everyone puts in 67 hrs, they will have to start ignoring the personal threshold in order to award all the flying, otherwise, they will get to the end and have no pilots left and TONS of trips. So, your simple math equation is simplistically correct, but applicably wrong.

If they need 80 hours per pilot on average, it is going to be very difficult to get this result given the pairing structure. Honestly, I think that this could really bite them in the butt when its all said and done... The big question is what do they need from each pilot (average) to make it work. I don't know the answer to that...but, I do know that even if its relatively low, many many people are going to be working more days for less money...and its not the "fault" of PBS, its the fault of ASA!

 

[crj567]

Thats not entirely true....

You cannot just look at the bottom of the window...you have to look at what they need on average for each pilot to fly to cover there block hours. They lowered the window to 67 hrs, but the TLV is at 90 hrs. If everyone puts in 67 hrs, they will have to start ignoring the personal threshold in order to award all the flying, otherwise, they will get to the end and have no pilots left and TONS of trips. So, your simple math equation is simplistically correct, but applicably wrong.

If they need 80 hours per pilot on average, it is going to be very difficult to get this result given the pairing structure. Honestly, I think that this could really bite them in the butt when its all said and done... The big question is what do they need from each pilot (average) to make it work. I don't know the answer to that...but, I do know that even if its relatively low, many many people are going to be working more days for less money...and its not the "fault" of PBS, its the fault of ASA!

Your points are valid, but the blame lies elsewhere. This agreement was sold to us as something it clearly isn't, and ASA never sold it to us.

We all should have known that our company would take full advantage of this agreement. Unfortunately, those who chose to sell this to us were very creative in their interpretation of how this would work, and many of us trusted them implicitly.

-We sure should have looked before we leapt. PBS with no trip rigs or pairing construction controls will be suicidal for our QOL. I think many of us would rather have gone on strike than have such a poorly designed agreement with virtually no meaningful protections rammed down our throats. If March is any sign of things to come, we all may as well be on reserve again.

-Shameful.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I have run into several senior guys who have written Brad Holt, Pappagiorgio and CC'd Charlie, and others. We need 1700 emails sent out over the weekend.

A few said that they can consider this their 90 day notice if this is the future. I agree....You can have it. This is not worth it anymore..

PS. Good luck in the next hiring cycle attracting pilots to this "super regional" We are the new Mesa....congratulations MGMT, well played.

 

[asa rat]

If there's money to be saved, the company is interested in saving it.

Then maybe they should consider how expensive it is to continue keeping Skywest separate.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

hmmm, where does it say CDOs are mandatory? It does look like the company's attempt at a variety of trips is being overlooked and the union isn't appearing to be too vocal about it.

Personally, I think CDOs are an invaluable tool to keep the system on time when there are IROP days or mechanical delays, particularly in the summer time. However, everyone knows that the company hates the compensation for them. In the old contract, you'd fly 30 hours and get paid for 75-80 (underblock) and now with the duty rig, they pay a lot better. It looks like the bean counters really are running the show now...

 

[COOPERVANE]

I told you so. There, I had to say it.

 

[gator_hater]

Could it possibly be that the road shows and PBS salespitches were done when the use of the 200 was vastly different than today?

It has been said several time PBS is a delivery method, not a pairing generator. The trouble is with the trips not the way they are handed out. They are two different issues.

Finally, also pointed out before, the company's definition of efficient and the pilots' definition are diametrically opposed and will never be the same. We want four 24hr 3-days a month They want everyone to get 75 hrs credit for as close to 75 hrs
of work as they can get. The two groups will never see eye to eye it is no different in any other business. We feel like we are special but the fact is every industry is squeezing more productivity out of labor. that is why the economy is growing (rather anemically) and the unemployment rate is remaining constant. The regional airlines are not special it is just where we have a front row seat to see it all happen.

 

[No Delay]

well, 2 issues with the above statement. The company is making their decisions from numbers on paper. they are theoretical efficiencies / savings...overlooking the true cost of happy employees vs unhappy employees. Performance bonuses, fuel burns, mtc cost, just to name a few.

I don't believe the pilot group at ASA is asking for the moon. Decent pay, and a decent schedule. I think we as a group have been very fair and VERY tolerant of the company with there under-staffing issues. Our union guys have bent over backwards to give the company what they want.

My second issue is how efficient are we willing to get? Would it not be more efficient for the company to pay captains the same as the f/0s...or what if we all worked for the same pay as the flight attendants??? Boy, that would be super efficient for the company.

Our quality of life should not be on the table!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our quality of life should be just the cost of doing business. Find your savings elsewhere.

How about those stock grants Brad gets? FKASA. If the F/O farts in the cockpit...I'm writing it up!

 

[Nevets]

I love how you rant in your posts about people "not educating themselves" on your system..."why don't you educate yourselves..."...etc. Then, when someone asks a question, you make them go dig for the answer! lol

To put it bluntly, I have read your posts before and knew your position...and you are wrong. You do not gain flexibility by your open time process...and in the end, the slate you start with is a preconstructed line. Mine is blank...clean! I can customize my schedule from the beginning. The only advantage you have over us in this regard is the add pay concept...which will most likely be a victim of this upcoming contract. It is a dying concept in the industry, and is already dead at the regional level, so far as I know, except for you guys...which just means you were the last to give it up...congratulations on holding the line...lets move on....

The reality is companies are putting all there eggs in the basket of avoiding paying for something that they aren't getting (ie, paying a guy 90 hrs when he actually flew 50) This is THERE definition of inefficiency.

Sorry, I didn't have anytime earlier when I posted that.

We can say for sure that in either system not everyone gets what they want. In our system, before the lines become final, for ANYONE who didn't get that pairing(s) they wanted, they can trade, drop, pickup from pairings that were dropped from others (including the sweet trips from the senior folks) because of transition, FAR, contractual, vacation, training, etc. These conflicts is what creates 1, 2, and 3 day pairings that did NOT exist before that EVERYONE can trade or pick up in the ILIW who were not senior enough to get one on the "front end." Also, the company is required to put all but 6-8 days above coverage at the beginning of the ILIW. So when all those days are at +4 coverage, people can drop trips down to 60 hours. Its also dynamic in that as people pick up trips, the coverage goes up and allows someone else to drop. In our system, even if you didn't end up with one or more trips or days you needed/wanted off, you can improve your line in that 24 hour period before it becomes final. Once the window closes, whatever trips are left over are used to make relief/conversion lines. Once we are in the SLIW, we can drop, pickup, trade, and bad day worse day with the little open time that is left over (its more than your 1.5%).

If you want max days off or max pay for vacation, it seems that both of our systems do that. But with our system, if you change your mind during your vacation week for whatever reason, we can pick up a trip and its add pay. In our system, if you have training, they just replace a trip (you can request which trip) with your training event and pay protect you for the original value of your trip.

So in our system, you bid for what you want on the front end as well. But if you happen to be number 2 or below and don't get exactly what you want, you can improve your line before it becomes final.

Yeah, and we can also advertise our trips or portions of our trips and our reserves can pick up open time during the APW.

Maybe your line bidding was worse than your current PBS. But just as your PBS is different from anyone else PBS, our line bidding system is different from your old line bidding system as well. Until you can improve your line, in the manner that we can (drop, trade, move trips, add days off, drop to 60 hours, pickup 1,2,3 day trips that didn't exist in the initial pairing construction, etc), after PBS awards your schedule and BEFORE its final, I will firmly beleive that our system is better and more flexible than your current PBS.

Then maybe they should consider how expensive it is to continue keeping Skywest separate.

Bingo!!! Thats exactly what I've been saying! Until they decided to save the costs of running two separate airlines with two sets of managements, then they can go pound sand!

well, 2 issues with the above statement. The company is making their decisions from numbers on paper. they are theoretical efficiencies / savings...overlooking the true cost of happy employees vs unhappy employees. Performance bonuses, fuel burns, mtc cost, just to name a few.

I don't believe the pilot group at ASA is asking for the moon. Decent pay, and a decent schedule. I think we as a group have been very fair and VERY tolerant of the company with there under-staffing issues. Our union guys have bent over backwards to give the company what they want.

My second issue is how efficient are we willing to get? Would it not be more efficient for the company to pay captains the same as the f/0s...or what if we all worked for the same pay as the flight attendants??? Boy, that would be super efficient for the company.

Our quality of life should not be on the table!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our quality of life should be just the cost of doing business. Find your savings elsewhere.

How about those stock grants Brad gets? FKASA. If the F/O farts in the cockpit...I'm writing it up!

Finally!!! Someone who gets it!

 

[Freebrd]

yeh having inefficient RJ200s a management decision, not de pilots problem, get some mo 700s and park the 200s, and leave my qol alone willya BH

 

[GeekMaster]

As a reminder to everyone:

The procedure for releasing the parking brake is specific. You release the parking brake when the aircraft is ready for pushback. That means all cargo bins closed, all doors closed, the flight attendents ready for taxi and acars numbers returned. I know in the past everyone's been anxious to get the main door closed and release the brake to get that D zero on record. However, everyone should follow the policy as written to avoid discipline by the company.

 

[Freebrd]

I be doin' dat sir, thats rite, late a few last trip, dern it:smash: