ASA PBS = No more CDO's

[No Delay]

a year or so ago I was on the hotel van with some skywest guys....chatting about PBS. I remember the skywest guy saying, "you mark my words - everyone will be down to min days off, working 5 or 6 days in a row, all for min pay"


I even relayed this statement to the PBS committee. The response was our PBS is so much better than skywest PBS!

Well, here we are! Regardless of the reasons why...appears the skywest guys were dead on.

 

[777forever]

a year or so ago I was on the hotel van with some skywest guys....chatting about PBS. I remember the skywest guy saying, "you mark my words - everyone will be down to min days off, working 5 or 6 days in a row, all for min pay"


I even relayed this statement to the PBS committee. The response was our PBS is so much better than skywest PBS!

Well, here we are! Regardless of the reasons why...appears the skywest guys were dead on.

Everyone? I think the 700/900 and IAD 200 beg to differ

 

[FL990]

You're right, but I think the company's hands are tied due to the ATL 200 flying they're give by Delta. Just finished a 4 day trip with NO flights over 400 miles that included a 6 leg day. When I hear of my co workers on the 70 doing ATL-MTJ or DTW-JAX and crediting 27hrs on their 4 day after overblock, a tear comes to my eyes...

I think that what you are saying is correct...to a point. The stage lengths are too short to create what used to be..ie 19+ hr 3day trips or 24+ hr 4 days. Oh sure, there could be a few, but they can't consistently make them that way. We agree on that.

HOWEVER, they CAN do better than 18 hr average 4 days. Last month, there were MANY MANY more 20 hr 4day trips...and a large portion were 19 +...(this is a casual observation and is not meant to be a factual analysis of the pairings). This month, I found less than 15 4days that were valued over 20 hrs and a small amount more that were over 19 hrs. Simply put, they can do better. With this sort of crap, it will be very difficult, in my opinion, to get a valid bid solution. Even with the low credit window, people are going to have to fly alot just to get to the bottom of the window. They may run out of people before they run out of trips...lets face it, who the heck would try to get high credit when your going to cap out around 80 hrs and have to work your butt off just to get there. Nope...I think you'll find that most will be incentived, in this case, to go min credit.

I think they are making a big mistake...but just my opinion.

 

[spudskier]

Everyone? I think the 700/900 and IAD 200 beg to differ

don't know what you're flying but I'm pretty up there in iAD and flying crap worthless trips with min days off, March looks like it's mostly 4-day trips (probably in violation of the TA) with more worthless crap trips. there might be 5 lines of 4-days and about 10 of 2-days, the rest are all low block 4-day trips.

 

[altimaklr]

Complain as much as you want, but this is not due to PBS.

It is due to Delta. The same thing has happened this year at Pinnacle, and already has been normal for Comair. At Pinnacle, 26-29 hour 4-day trips were normal, now it's mostly 21-23 hours.

Delta keeps spreading flying out on the 200 while at the same time limiting the stage length to <750NM. It's very difficult to create legal and practical trips out of theses flights.

 

[Nevets]

These bad pairings are not a function of PBS...they are a function of bad pairings. In other words, PBS is NOT to blame. If they wanted to make bad schedules, they would have MORE control through line bidding than with PBS. That is the universal statement that applies here that we need to remember....not matter what the problem, line bidding gives the company MORE control, NOT LESS.

Yes I am angry, but PBS is not the problem. For the last few years, the company has been dropping the line values this time of year...its nothing new. I truly feel that the company does not fully understand this system, and in the end, they are shooting themselves in the foot by doing this.

Its clear we need more input into pairing construction, but be careful what you wish for in terms of duty rigs, high min days, high trip rigs....those things are good but can have undesirable consiquences.

That is NOT a universal statement. At XJT, the pilots have more control over their lines than you guys do with your PBS.

What are the unintended consequences you allude to?

 

[IFLYASA]

Don't worry. We can make it through the month with our hefty Performance Plus+ payout. No, wait...

No more profit sharing...ASA is taking the losses form Expressjet and combining this with out profits. This will result in little or no profit. Bye Bye Performance Plus payouts.

 

[79%N1]

Complain as much as you want, but this is not due to PBS.

It is due to Delta. The same thing has happened this year at Pinnacle, and already has been normal for Comair. At Pinnacle, 26-29 hour 4-day trips were normal, now it's mostly 21-23 hours.

Delta keeps spreading flying out on the 200 while at the same time limiting the stage length to <750NM. It's very difficult to create legal and practical trips out of theses flights.

We'd kill for "mostly 21-23 hour" 4 days! Big difference in 17 hours to 23. That's 24 more hours credit on four 4 day trips!!!! And we don't go ANYWHERE NEAR 750 miles on the 200 in ATL. More like 200-300 max.

 

[Nevets]

No more profit sharing...ASA is taking the losses form Expressjet and combining this with out profits. This will result in little or no profit. Bye Bye Performance Plus payouts.

What was ASA's profit last quarter? And what was Skywest's profit last quarter? Also keep in mind that Skywest didn't buy XJT until Nov 12.

 

[FL990]

That is NOT a universal statement. At XJT, the pilots have more control over their lines than you guys do with your PBS.

What are the unintended consequences you allude to?

More control...and how is that Nevets? Explain...

The unitended consiquences are seen in what we are dealing with. The company is avoiding naps because of there fiscal inefficiency, and this dominos into poor overall pairing construction which effects us all. Granted, this is an oversimplified expanation but the point is that often times these rigs don't incentive to do what we want, as much as they give them an issue that they work to avoid altogether.

As for a 5 hr min day, this would be nice, but what precident is there at the regional level to support this? (sound of crickets) So then the next question is what do we have to give up in order to get it?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

PBS with XJT's flights from CAL would certainly yield more productive, better pairings than what Delta restricts the CRJ-200. I would love to see what a XJT bid packet looked like. In fact, if anyone can PM that would be great...

 

[altimaklr]

We'd kill for "mostly 21-23 hour" 4 days! Big difference in 17 hours to 23. That's 24 more hours credit on four 4 day trips!!!! And we don't go ANYWHERE NEAR 750 miles on the 200 in ATL. More like 200-300 max.

Like someone else mentioned, if you want the company to pay you 8 hours for a CDO, you can't blame them for eliminating them. Same thing goes for duty rigs and min-day-pay. Pinnacle can build more efficient trips because they can use CDO's and other things that don't cost the company a fortune for a relatively small amount of flying.

 

[Nevets]

More control...and how is that Nevets? Explain...

The unitended consiquences are seen in what we are dealing with. The company is avoiding naps because of there fiscal inefficiency, and this dominos into poor overall pairing construction which effects us all. Granted, this is an oversimplified expanation but the point is that often times these rigs don't incentive to do what we want, as much as they give them an issue that they work to avoid altogether.

As for a 5 hr min day, this would be nice, but what precident is there at the regional level to support this? (sound of crickets) So then the next question is what do we have to give up in order to get it?

I don't have the time now so just go back and read my recent posting history and you will see the control I'm talking about. We have way more flexibility than you do with your PBS.

PBS with XJT's flights from CAL would certainly yield more productive, better pairings than what Delta restricts the CRJ-200. I would love to see what a XJT bid packet looked like. In fact, if anyone can PM that would be great...

Over at XJT we are starting to have the same problems now that Skywest is flying our longer routes with their 700s. Those longer flights we used to do are now being replaced by shorter routes that the 200s used to fly in the ORD/DEN/IAD system. I don't know how to PM a document that big.

 

[gator_hater]

You're obviously the only one who gets it. Your shipmates should listen up.

He's not the only one who gets it, but he is the only one that thinks the ones that don't will listen.

The fact is the guys complaining are pissed and not thinking rationally, and will not accept the fact that Delta's use of the 200 is changing. Since they won't accept that they come on here and b!tch thinking that will change everything.

 

[FL990]

I don't have the time now so just go back and read my recent posting history and you will see the control I'm talking about. We have way more flexibility than you do with your PBS.



Over at XJT we are starting to have the same problems now that Skywest is flying our longer routes with their 700s. Those longer flights we used to do are now being replaced by shorter routes that the 200s used to fly in the ORD/DEN/IAD system. I don't know how to PM a document that big.

I love how you rant in your posts about people "not educating themselves" on your system..."why don't you educate yourselves..."...etc. Then, when someone asks a question, you make them go dig for the answer! lol

To put it bluntly, I have read your posts before and knew your position...and you are wrong. You do not gain flexibility by your open time process...and in the end, the slate you start with is a preconstructed line. Mine is blank...clean! I can customize my schedule from the beginning. The only advantage you have over us in this regard is the add pay concept...which will most likely be a victim of this upcoming contract. It is a dying concept in the industry, and is already dead at the regional level, so far as I know, except for you guys...which just means you were the last to give it up...congratulations on holding the line...lets move on....

The reality is companies are putting all there eggs in the basket of avoiding paying for something that they aren't getting (ie, paying a guy 90 hrs when he actually flew 50) This is THERE definition of inefficiency.