ASA July lines...

[enuffalready]

See what I mean.....

"Back in the old days." And "uphill both ways in the snow." And "we didn't have toilet paper, so we used tiny sheets of medium-density particle board to wipe," and such-and-so.....

-Joe is all about Joe.

beauty of age, wisdom and experience is that those of us beginning to get all three, realize that what others use to tell us about 'uphill both ways, in the snow', were right. As you get older, young luke, you realize that the advice that those who had already been there, that we ignored during our youth, was actually right all along.

 

[Abernathy]

About 2 years under far worse scheduling rules and a ruthless head of scheduling....Erion....Most of you wouldn't have lasted under those conditions. You do realize that back then, being on call was considered "rest" don't you?

Simply put, the rules for reserves are far better than they have ever been. The company is far more reasonable than they have ever been. The schedulers are far nicer than they were in the past. In addition, stagnation isn't something new...It has happened before. This is the third downturn I have seen.

Joe the reason I asked is that a lot of guys at ASA who were hired during the "old days" never spent time on reserve and are out of touch with the reality of how it works. You're probably right, the rules were probably a lot worse 10-15 years ago. However, that doesn't mean that there are things going on at the moment that are seriously questionable. Throwing scheduled 8 hour overnights on reserves and extending them the following day, in my opinion, is pretty sick.

Another question for you: when you were on reserve however many years ago, did you typically fly every single on call day and get extended beyond 14 hours due to "operational delay"? Reserves are basically line pilots right now but without an actual schedule and only making about guarantee. I'm asking because I'm trying to gauge where it is you are coming from.

And for what it's worth, our current union respresentation is so soft they should be wearing pink slippers and carrying purses.

 

[CFI2766]

LOL. I laugh when people say this as a way to demean the senior guys. Some of those guys have a net worth of 1 million plus. I don't know what you're trying to make fun of but it's certainly not their pocketbook.

Uhhhhm, psst: $1 million is not that much when considering a 'net worth'...

Especially not for a 'professional.'

Just sayin'.

 

[anon]

how about the ability to access $1M out of your available cash in savings and investment accounts?

 

[777forever]

Joe the reason I asked is that a lot of guys at ASA who were hired during the "old days" never spent time on reserve and are out of touch with the reality of how it works. You're probably right, the rules were probably a lot worse 10-15 years ago. However, that doesn't mean that there are things going on at the moment that are seriously questionable. Throwing scheduled 8 hour overnights on reserves and extending them the following day, in my opinion, is pretty sick.

Another question for you: when you were on reserve however many years ago, did you typically fly every single on call day and get extended beyond 14 hours due to "operational delay"? Reserves are basically line pilots right now but without an actual schedule and only making about guarantee. I'm asking because I'm trying to gauge where it is you are coming from.

And for what it's worth, our current union respresentation is so soft they should be wearing pink slippers and carrying purses.

You lost everyone when you said only crediting guarantee. You guys are crediting 90+hrs. If you're flying everyday on call like you complaining about there is no way you are making only guarantee. Only people making guarantee these days are the poor s.o.b.'s on reserve in IAD. We are commuting and making at least $1000 less per month.

You guys really need to sit in our shoes for a month here in Dulles. You find your whining less.

 

[buscap]

You lost everyone when you said only crediting guarantee. You guys are crediting 90+hrs. If you're flying everyday on call like you complaining about there is no way you are making only guarantee. Only people making guarantee these days are the poor s.o.b.'s on reserve in IAD. We are commuting and making at least $1000 less per month.

You guys really need to sit in our shoes for a month here in Dulles. You find your whining less.

Yep.

I just threw up in my mouth.

Anyone else?

 

[ohplease!]

Uhhhhm, psst: $1 million is not that much when considering a 'net worth'...

Especially not for a 'professional.'

Just sayin'.

obviously yours is much higher, huh?

 

[wms]

Give me a break. There are 10's of thousands of airline pilots and 10's of thousands of sob stories. We all have had our various struggles.

Some of the ASA pilots on here need to stop whining and go wax their bikini lines. BROTHER!

 

[Abernathy]

You lost everyone when you said only crediting guarantee. You guys are crediting 90+hrs. If you're flying everyday on call like you complaining about there is no way you are making only guarantee. Only people making guarantee these days are the poor s.o.b.'s on reserve in IAD. We are commuting and making at least $1000 less per month.

You guys really need to sit in our shoes for a month here in Dulles. You find your whining less.

Last month we had several 80+ hour guarantees but I don't recall seeing any significant number of 90+ hours--maybe the long call guys or the short call/call me first types. And last month was the heaviest I've ever seen. Prior to that, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but 90+ hours was quite rare. 75-78 was much more common. I saw just one 100+ last month.

So when you say "you guys are crediting 90+ hrs," I really don't know who you are referring to. Breaking guarantee in any significant way is much less common than you appear to think it is. Working up to guarantee is more the trend down here.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe the reason I asked is that a lot of guys at ASA who were hired during the "old days" never spent time on reserve and are out of touch with the reality of how it works. You're probably right, the rules were probably a lot worse 10-15 years ago. However, that doesn't mean that there are things going on at the moment that are seriously questionable. Throwing scheduled 8 hour overnights on reserves and extending them the following day, in my opinion, is pretty sick.

Another question for you: when you were on reserve however many years ago, did you typically fly every single on call day and get extended beyond 14 hours due to "operational delay"? Reserves are basically line pilots right now but without an actual schedule and only making about guarantee. I'm asking because I'm trying to gauge where it is you are coming from.

Bandit reserve I flew most days on reserve. 10 days off, and fly most of the rest. 1 hour callout, and plenty of 12 hour days hand flying 7 legs. ATR FO reserve in DFW, flew most days on reserve. ATR FO reserve in ATL hardly flew at all because there were 4 airplanes in ATL with 4 of us on reserve. ATR capt. reserve, flew most days. Duty time didn't count until you actually got a trip. Worst of all, Erion the terror controlled your life.

I've kept all my old paysheets, and I came across some nap line months in DFW where I flew 80 hours for the month doing naps. We did 4 in a row, and they were always frontloaded with a roundtrip before you left for the 5 hour on the ground nap.

I don't bring this up to play the old "uphill both ways in the snow" argument, but rather to put things in persepective when you and others say that us senior folks don't understand. IMO, it is easier now than it was for many reasons. I didn't say easy....rather easier. It is still hard to be on reserve....but it used to be even harder.

Something to think about.....When I was hired, my seniority number was 637. Now it is 190. If we hadn't grown, then after 16 years, I would be a junior capt.....However, we have roughly tripled in size, and therefor I am a senior capt, rather than a junior capt. I credit my QOL of improvements to be about 70% due to becoming senior, and about 30% due to improvements in the contract. IMO, the growth made more of a difference in my QOL than the contract improvements.

This business is kinda like a giant pyramid scheme....It's great as long as you move up the pyramid and build a larger base...It's not so great if you are at the bottom of the pyramid. Times of growth here have always been a bit painful....even more painful back in the Erion days. However in the end, the growth is better than shrinking. IMO, we are very lucky to be growing in this environment.

That's were I am coming from....

 

[Texx]

I am beginning to wonder whether anything ever really gets "fixed" in any contract... We just keep fighting the same battles-and losing ground.

Then you really don't understand how the system works when it comes to CBAs. Company attorney finds loopholes, ALPA attorney "trys" to fix them.

 

[crj567]

Then you really don't understand how the system works when it comes to CBAs. Company attorney finds loopholes, ALPA attorney "trys" to fix them.

You are correct... Loopholes we thought we had fixed over and over. For instance-we didn't have much trouble swapping trips under our old contract-now we cannot swap a thing. "Red arrow" days every single day-every month.... Also, we used to not get hosed so badly during a vacation month-we got pay adjustments subtracted from guarantee-not from block This is at least a 15 or 20 hour difference for each vacation month. (Don't even think about bidding naps and vacation-you can get really, really hosed.)

I am not saying that some things are not much better under our current contract, but clearly, there has been more ground lost than I would consider reasonable. Much of this could easily have been prevented by simply using better language... This thing reads as if it were written by mgmt. for the benefit of mgmt. And our PBS agreement is far, far worse than our contract.

This contract definitely has weaker language than our old one-this problem would clearly be headed off at the pass if competent people were writing the durn thing. Lawyers are getting paid a lot of our dues money to help our negotiators write our contract. You will never find any other legal document of any sort with such obviously faulty language as "considering staffing levels, the effects of efficiency, market conditions, and so forth-the company may elect to comply with XYandZ." You can bet XYandZ" is never gonna happen. The company accurately argues that they have no obligation to do many things we were told at road shows. Talk about a sales pitch!

-I am still insulted that my dues went to pay for any part of that silly flim-flam song and dance they used to sell that fine selection of toilet tissue we just ratified which will buttrape our schedules in ways we have not even imagined.

-Just Dang.

 

[Tarzan]

And our PBS agreement is far, far worse than our contract.

-I am still insulted that my dues went to pay for any part of that silly flim-flam song and dance they used to sell that fine selection of toilet tissue we just ratified which will buttrape our schedules in ways we have not even imagined.

Have you read all the language regarding PBS including the implementation letter? How about the language that prohibits the company from "interpreting" or using different terms? How about the language that that says if the language does not specifically give the company the right, they can't do it? If the company finds a way around this, I'll be surprised. I don't know how you can tie it down any tighter than that.

Secondly, your dues money didn't pay for this. The company did. Just as they will pay for the goons from ALPA to be up there to find some mutual consent on bid runs.

Will there be issues? I am sure they will come up just as with a contractual item. The goons write them as well as they can and the company looks for ways to exploit the language. It goes like that at any airline. In the end, the company can violate that document anytime they feel like it no matter how tight the language is and the only recourse we as pilots have is to file and follow the grievance procedure that take up to a year to complete. Basically, the game has rules no matter how much you don't like it. Don't like them? Go to Congress and write a new bill to get them changed.

 

[crj567]

Have you read all the language regarding PBS including the implementation letter? How about the language that prohibits the company from "interpreting" or using different terms? How about the language that that says if the language does not specifically give the company the right, they can't do it? If the company finds a way around this, I'll be surprised. I don't know how you can tie it down any tighter than that.

Secondly, your dues money didn't pay for this. The company did. Just as they will pay for the goons from ALPA to be up there to find some mutual consent on bid runs.

Yep-

Wait and see how this specific part works out.... The first month we don't have "mutual consent" is gonna be real interesting. The solution for this had to have been written by our ALPA lawyer's third-grader on a "take your kid to work day."

-That is a real funny-bone tickler.

-As far as the language in general goes-the company won't need to "interpret" a thing when each paragraph is preceded by "in the interest of efficiency, staffing levels, market conditions-the company may ___."

-Just sad that anyone bought this level of stupid.

 

[dooork]

Wow...I thought the ASA pilot contract was industry leading. Seems like after 5 years of neg. you would not have these problems....uhh.