ASA JCBA: Timeline Thoughts?

[NotTooBad]

Thank you very much for posting all of that information nevets. I will try to make a comparison to the ASA contract and post it for your review.

 

[Nevets]

It really wasn't a comparison of the retirement or profit sharing program or mmg or duty rigs or anything else that affects out total income package. This was simply an assessment of hourly pay rates. It was very much apples to apples. I never claimed it was a full picture of our total compensation package just a simple comparison of 50 seat pay rates between the two companies.

It was an apples to oranges comparison in the simple fact that XJT chose to defer some of their hourly rates into the 401k match and B fund. In other words, XJT could have used the negotiating capital to get the 401k match and B fund to get a corresponding higher payrate. Conversely, ASA could have used negotiating capital they used to get payrates in order to get better 401k matching and a B fund. It just so happens to be that you can mathematically quantify how much the 401k match and B fund "cost.". It's not like trying to quantify duty rigs into a specific dollar amount like you can do down to the penny with 401k matching and B funds.

 

[dojetdriver]

This was simply an assessment of hourly pay rates.[/QUOTE

It was an apples to oranges comparison in the simple fact that XJT chose to defer some of their hourly rates into the 401k match and B fund. In other words, XJT could have used the negotiating capital to get the 401k match and B fund to get a corresponding higher payrate. Conversely, ASA could have used negotiating capital they used to get payrates in order to get better 401k matching and a B fund. It just so happens to be that you can mathematically quantify how much the 401k match and B fund "cost.". It's not like trying to quantify duty rigs into a specific dollar amount like you can do down to the penny with 401k matching and B funds.

Sorry Nevets, but I'm more inclined to agree with NTB. The hourly rates are what they are, and don't change till they're negotiated. Where as the 401K, and the resulting match is a highly subjective form of "compensation". As well was the standard market fluctuations. The pilot can elect to not contribute and invest they're money elsewhere. The pilot can invest in their own business, whatever investments they have, real estate, etc. It's the pilot's choice by simply going to the website and adjusting up or down the contribution, or simply not participate.

I know, in your quest to always be right, you'll take the stance that XJT's compensation is higher due to the 401K, etc. We'll just have to agree to disagree if you do. It's just like the profit sharing increasing our W2's. That's great and all, IF we're getting profit sharing checks.

NotTooBad, if you want, I can take the Hours of Service section of both CBA's and make the point by point comparison.

 

[NotTooBad]

It was an apples to oranges comparison in the simple fact that XJT chose to defer some of their hourly rates into the 401k match and B fund. In other words, XJT could have used the negotiating capital to get the 401k match and B fund to get a corresponding higher payrate. Conversely, ASA could have used negotiating capital they used to get payrates in order to get better 401k matching and a B fund. It just so happens to be that you can mathematically quantify how much the 401k match and B fund "cost.". It's not like trying to quantify duty rigs into a specific dollar amount like you can do down to the penny with 401k matching and B funds.

I 100% agree that to get the better retirement you likely sacrificed in the hourly pay rate department. I do however think that is irrelevant in a comparison of pay rates. Everything in negotiations has a monetary value. Pay rates, retirement, Duty rigs, MMG, Reserve rules, insurance, profit sharing, max duty day rules - everything. That is much of the debate during negotiations; how much will it really cost to cut out max work day by 1 hour? 401k & retirement is of course no exception to this rule but if we are including that why would we not include the 3% a year I make at ASA from the profit sharing program (Called performance + payouts)? Why not include that you have a much larger life insurance payout in the event of a business related death? All of these things affect our compensation. Health insurance is also a large consideration in both of our compensation packages. To really evaluate you must break each thing down to an apples to apples comparison. The result will likely be isolating item by item and comparing each apple to each apple and leaving the oranges on the table for the next review.

 

[Nevets]

Sorry Nevets, but I'm more inclined to agree with NTB. The hourly rates are what they are, and don't change till they're negotiated. Where as the 401K, and the resulting match is a highly subjective form of "compensation". As well was the standard market fluctuations. The pilot can elect to not contribute and invest they're money elsewhere. The pilot can invest in their own business, whatever investments they have, real estate, etc. It's the pilot's choice by simply going to the website and adjusting up or down the contribution, or simply not participate.

I know, in your quest to always be right, you'll take the stance that XJT's compensation is higher due to the 401K, etc. We'll just have to agree to disagree if you do. It's just like the profit sharing increasing our W2's. That's great and all, IF we're getting profit sharing checks.

NotTooBad, if you want, I can take the Hours of Service section of both CBA's and make the point by point comparison.

Quest to be right? I've been proven wrong enough on these boards not to be on a "quest to be right." I just state facts and opinions as I know them to be in good faith. In fact, I've been proven wrong by you on at least one occasion. I have no problem with learning something new even if it means I'm wrong. Anyway...

The matching part of the 401k is a specific dollar amount depending on your payrate. If you decide to leave that money on the table by not at least contributing up to your contractual match, that is up to you. Its the same as not pay claiming your repo pay. Contractually you are entitled to that specific dollar amount according to your payrate but if you rather not take your money, the company wont stop you.

As for the B fund contribution, you don't even have to participate at all in the 401k to get that money. That is partly why its called "deferred compensation." As for profit sharing, you are right. That is never guaranteed money and why I didn't include it. In fact, apparently that was a freebie anyways and no negotiating capital was used in getting it.

But hey, I sold my model airplane for $20 on ebay so I'll go ahead include that as well. jk

I 100% agree that to get the better retirement you likely sacrificed in the hourly pay rate department. I do however think that is irrelevant in a comparison of pay rates. Everything in negotiations has a monetary value. Pay rates, retirement, Duty rigs, MMG, Reserve rules, insurance, profit sharing, max duty day rules - everything. That is much of the debate during negotiations; how much will it really cost to cut out max work day by 1 hour? 401k & retirement is of course no exception to this rule but if we are including that why would we not include the 3% a year I make at ASA from the profit sharing program (Called performance + payouts)? Why not include that you have a much larger life insurance payout in the event of a business related death? All of these things affect our compensation. Health insurance is also a large consideration in both of our compensation packages. To really evaluate you must break each thing down to an apples to apples comparison. The result will likely be isolating item by item and comparing each apple to each apple and leaving the oranges on the table for the next review.

The reason why it should be included is because its specifically "deferred compensation." Its not a work rule, its part of our actual compensation (money in the bank literally) that we are guaranteed. As for the performance bonuses, its the same reason why I don't include profit sharing. Its not deferred compensation and its certainly NEVER guaranteed as the 401k match and B fund company contribution is ALWAYS guaranteed.

 

[dojetdriver]

The matching part of the 401k is a specific dollar amount depending on your payrate

And you missed the point again. X amount of hours times Y amount of hourly rates equals a hard number. X amount of 401K contribution plus Y amount of company contribution is fluid, and depends on a whole slew of variables. How much that money is worth at a later date unknown.

As for the B fund contribution

Hence the reason I left it out and stuck with the 401K.

Its not deferred compensation and its certainly NEVER guaranteed as the 401k match and B fund company contribution is ALWAYS guaranteed.

But subject to things like stock market volatility, economic crash, fund performance, investment options, etc. My paycheck is a hard number, what the 401K will be worth in the future, who knows?

 

[Nevets]

And you missed the point again. X amount of hours times Y amount of hourly rates equals a hard number. X amount of 401K contribution plus Y amount of company contribution is fluid, and depends on a whole slew of variables. How much that money is worth at a later date unknown.



Hence the reason I left it out and stuck with the 401K.



But subject to things like stock market volatility, economic crash, fund performance, investment options, etc. My paycheck is a hard number, what the 401K will be worth in the future, who knows?

Your only beef is with the 401k match but not the B fund contribution? In that case, what about subtracting 10% of the matching percentage to get a real compensation amount since that is the penalty you'll pay for immediately withdrawing that money? So a 6% match would actually be valued at 5.4%? Although I still feel that that match would have gone to payrates instead if we didnt negotiate for it since to the company it's the same amount they are paying out regardless. Also, the way I understand their performance bonuses is that it's paid out in cash. The amount depending on four metrics and which tier reached on each metric and whether the company was profitable that quarter. So it's just like profit sharing in that it's never guaranteed and not subject to the stock market, of course unless you decide to put it there.

 

[NotTooBad]

Your only beef is with the 401k match but not the B fund contribution? In that case, what about subtracting 10% of the matching percentage to get a real compensation amount since that is the penalty you'll pay for immediately withdrawing that money? So a 6% match would actually be valued at 5.4%? Although I still feel that that match would have gone to payrates instead if we didnt negotiate for it since to the company it's the same amount they are paying out regardless. Also, the way I understand their performance bonuses is that it's paid out in cash. The amount depending on four metrics and which tier reached on each metric and whether the company was profitable that quarter. So it's just like profit sharing in that it's never guaranteed and not subject to the stock market, of course unless you decide to put it there.

I get all of the arguments presented. My question is why not just say pay v pay, 401k v 401k, B Plan v Non Existent, Non Existent v Profit Sharing, so on a so forth with each major section of the agreement. We are very capable of assessing things individually and if we are going to make a collective sheet that displays the "comparison" of each item why not just separate all categories and let each person prioritize them for themselves? By drawing a comparison in the way above we can see that "XJT has a great benefit in the retirement department - not only is their 401k higher but they also have B plan options - but wait on the ASA side the company has an existing policy of profit sharing that XJT can expect to gain". I'm not saying these are "competing" but it should be a good way for us pilots get a better idea of what we can expect to gain that the other already has.

I am willing to spend some time and create the comparisons for certain parts of the agreement. Is anyone willing to offer some time to create a coordinated comparison and then email it to me and I'll compile in into one document and post it?

 

[NotTooBad]

This was simply an assessment of hourly pay rates.[/QUOTE


NotTooBad, if you want, I can take the Hours of Service section of both CBA's and make the point by point comparison.

I would love for you too. Give me a bit and I'll come up with what I think is the most important parts. This will def be one of those. Create and compare whatever you wish. If you can manage to put it in a word doc I'll give you my email address and I'll create a chart to compare each thing with the information you provide.

 

[dojetdriver]

Your only beef is with the 401k match but not the B fund contribution? In that case, what about subtracting 10% of the matching percentage to get a real compensation amount since that is the penalty you'll pay for immediately withdrawing that money? So a 6% match would actually be valued at 5.4%? Although I still feel that that match would have gone to payrates instead if we didnt negotiate for it since to the company it's the same amount they are paying out regardless. Also, the way I understand their performance bonuses is that it's paid out in cash. The amount depending on four metrics and which tier reached on each metric and whether the company was profitable that quarter. So it's just like profit sharing in that it's never guaranteed and not subject to the stock market, of course unless you decide to put it there.

Congrats, you FINALLY got was I was trying to say. Not only here, but the thread on the crackpipe from months ago.