ASA JCBA: Timeline Thoughts?

[centralpilot]

Is there a link for the Expressjet contract? Thanks.

There is a link to the XJT contract on the ASA ALPA MEC home page.

 

[Data]

So what kind of $ do you think is a good opener. Xjt already has higher rates than asa even under concessionary contract. So get that back and some on top I'm thinking about 15% from current asa rates? Discuss.

:laugh: Now that's funny!

 

[NotTooBad]

Here's the 2009 pre concessionary rates. These SHOULD be the baseline, THEN the standard 4-6% per year till the JCBA is signed;



CA
1 65.28
2 67.24
3 69.25
4 71.33
5 73.47
6 75.67
7 77.19
8 79.50
9 81.89
10 84.35
11 86.88
12 89.48
13 92.17
14 94.93
15 96.83
16 98.77
17 100.74
18 102.76

FO

1 24.50
2 36.47
3 38.73
4 41.31
5 42.55
6 43.82
7 45.14
8 46.49

Here is breakdown of ASA vs XJT pay rates based on the numbers you provided. This is ASA CRJ 200 Pilots vs XJT's Pre-concessionary pay rates that you posted. I have not verified that the numbers posted to XJT are correct. I copied ASA's rates straight out of the CBA.


ASA NOW XJT PRE CONCESSIONARY
(11/20/10) (NOT VERIFIED)
$56.39 65.28 ($8.89) -14%
$59.62 67.24 ($7.62) -11%
$63.67 69.25 ($5.58) -8%
$65.66 71.33 ($5.67) -8%
$67.67 73.47 ($5.80) -8%
$69.77 75.67 ($5.90) -8%
$71.93 77.19 ($5.26) -7%
$74.15 79.5 ($5.35) -7%
$76.43 81.89 ($5.46) -7%
$78.82 84.35 ($5.53) -7%
$81.26 86.88 ($5.62) -6%
$84.13 89.48 ($5.35) -6%
$86.35 92.17 ($5.82) -6%
$89.02 94.93 ($5.91) -6%
$91.78 96.83 ($5.05) -5%
$94.53 98.77 ($4.24) -4%
$96.89 100.74($3.85) -4%
$99.31 102.76($3.45) -3%

$23.00 24.5 ($1.50) -6%
$35.77 36.47 ($0.70) -2%
$38.20 38.73 ($0.53) -1%
$39.40 41.31 ($1.91) -5%
$40.60 42.55 ($1.95) -5%
$41.86 43.82 ($1.96) -4%
$43.16 45.14 ($1.98) -4%
46.49 ***** ***

 

[WWEfan]

-You XJET guys really need to take heed. Our pilot group is full of these losers.

And crj567 is their leader.

 

[CiFIknow]

The pre-concessionary XJT rates posted above are correct.

 

[sweptback]

For as good as those payrates are, you guys sure sold out your FOs by not pegging them to 60% of captain rates.

 

[Master Shake]

For as good as those payrates are, you guys sure sold out your FOs by not pegging them to 60% of captain rates.

That contract was voted in over 6 years ago by a very different pilot group. It was loaded with Continental mainline flow backs who stood to gain a back pay check of between 12K-16K for voting yes. They then promptly left to Continental as soon as they were called. Different time, different group, different priorities.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That contract was voted in over 6 years ago by a very different pilot group. It was loaded with Continental mainline flow backs who stood to gain a back pay check of between 12K-16K for voting yes. They then promptly left to Continental as soon as they were called. Different time, different group, different priorities.

The point sweptback was making is that despite all the crowing and chest thumping about how great your payrates are....The FO rates were not industry leading based on what had become an industry standard. That is 60% of capt. pay for FOs....ASA first achieved that back in 1998...12 years ago.

There seems to be some "picking and choosing" and "cherry picking" of your contract when it comes to proclaiming how great it is....

 

[CiFIknow]

The point sweptback was making is that despite all the crowing and chest thumping about how great your payrates are....The FO rates were not industry leading based on what had become an industry standard. That is 60% of capt. pay for FOs....ASA first achieved that back in 1998...12 years ago.

There seems to be some "picking and choosing" and "cherry picking" of your contract when it comes to proclaiming how great it is....

Nobody is "crowing" or "chest thumping". Just sharing information that may not be known by the ASA side of things. I'm all for raising the FO rates. One should not be sitting in the right seat for five years and not be making at least $50k in my opinion. Our rates on the FO side are higher than ASA's as well. Yes, they may not be at 60 percent of CA pay as they should be. That is something we should fight for. To bring the FO rates up. You seem to be advocating bringing the CA rates down so that the FO rates will then be at the 60 percent mark.

I want the best of both contracts. Is ours better in some areas?? Sure. Is yours better in others?? Of course. We aren't saying "mine's better than yours (insert schoolyard voice)". We all need to look at each side and pick the best from each. As was stated earlier, I hope nobody votes yes on anything that is not an improvement over what we currently have.

(Thump, thump, cawww!!!)

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Don't squabble over the hourly pay rates. Look at the whole board: work rules, credit issues. I honestly don't care what the pay rates are compared to other carriers as long as my W-2 is significantly improved and I had plenty of off time to do what I want to do.

 

[nerjdriver]

ASA guys, READ the XJT contract!!!!!! Educate yourselves, XJT guys have much to lose with this JCBA. I think we should use the XJT contract and pre-concessionary pay scales as a STARTING point. Anything in the JCBA not currently in the XJT contract will be a concession.

 

[nerjdriver]

Pay rates are great, but how about work rules? You can make a lot of money on work rules vs. hourly rate. Is there a link for the Expressjet contract? Thanks.

Our work rules blow ASAs out of the water.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Our work rules blow ASAs out of the water.

I have been reading the "crackpipe" and find some of your knowledge of our contract to be somewhat lacking also...One poster over there actually said we don't have cancellation pay for weather and mechanical. Not only do we have cancellation pay for any reason, it is better than yours and anyone elses out there, as it is "leg by leg".

That being said, the best contract in the world doesn't mean squat if you lose your job....For me, job security is number one...Everything else comes second....

 

[JoeMerchant]

ASA guys, READ the XJT contract!!!!!! Educate yourselves, XJT guys have much to lose with this JCBA. I think we should use the XJT contract and pre-concessionary pay scales as a STARTING point. Anything in the JCBA not currently in the XJT contract will be a concession.

Specifics please...How do have "much to lose"? Keep in mind, you folks have lost your company. The difference between our contracts isn't that much different.

 

[dojetdriver]

Here is breakdown of ASA vs XJT pay rates based on the numbers you provided. This is ASA CRJ 200 Pilots vs XJT's Pre-concessionary pay rates that you posted. I have not verified that the numbers posted to XJT are correct. I copied ASA's rates straight out of the CBA.

As has been mentioned, the rates I posted are accurate. Not caring about comparing pre concession XJT to current 2010 ASA rates, but the normal 4-6% should be added to the XJT rates as 2009 was the last year those were valid to establish the base line.

Don't squabble over the hourly pay rates. Look at the whole board: work rules, credit issues. I honestly don't care what the pay rates are compared to other carriers as long as my W-2 is significantly improved and I had plenty of off time to do what I want to do.

Agree, once you give up work rules, it's hard to get them back.

I have been reading the "crackpipe" and find some of your knowledge of our contract to be somewhat lacking also...One poster over there actually said we don't have cancellation pay for weather and mechanical. Not only do we have cancellation pay for any reason,

Key word, ONE poster. He was corrected by a later loster.

it is better than yours and anyone elses out there, as it is "leg by leg".

For my edification, how does ASA'a work? Ours is leg by leg as well. But that changes when the duty period becomes "modified". However, you will NEVER get paid less than what the duty period was worth when modified due to cancellations.

That being said, the best contract in the world doesn't mean squat if you lose your job....For me, job security is number one...Everything else comes second....

Been there, done that.

But like before, I have to disagree with you. If we settle for an "average" CBA, it means the majority of the pilots on the new combined list will be taking concessions.

Keep in mind, you folks have lost your company. The difference between our contracts isn't that much different.

And the attitude that "you folks have lost your company", or "ASA SAVED XJT so just suck it up" isn't going to help negotiation matters much. Try a different tact to get your point across. Sorry, but reading the current ASA CBA, there's more than one thing that got piggy backed off of XJT contract 04 in one form or another. And that's fine, that's how the pattern bargaining/"jacking up the house" system is supposed to work. But don't be under the impression that one pilot group owes the other pilot group anything.

 

[nerjdriver]

Specifics please...How do have "much to lose"? Keep in mind, you folks have lost your company. The difference between our contracts isn't that much different.

Yes it is very different. Read our CBA. Also, Joe....You didnt save sh!t, and we have a larger pilot group that will vote in conjunction with yours. So it is probably a safe bet that what the XJT group wants more they will get. Soooo sorrrryy

 

[zawillif]

And the attitude that "you folks have lost your company", or "ASA SAVED XJT so just suck it up" isn't going to help negotiation matters much. Try a different tact to get your point across. Sorry, but reading the current ASA CBA, there's more than one thing that got piggy backed off of XJT contract 04 in one form or another. And that's fine, that's how the pattern bargaining/"jacking up the house" system is supposed to work. But don't be under the impression that one pilot group owes the other pilot group anything.

I agree with you completely. I believe what he was getting at was that if you have the richest contract in the world you run a greater risk of running your company out of business. I'm not saying that's what you guys did, but in an industry where profit margins are slim you can't expect to have a contract that is multiple 10%'s higher than the rest and stay competitive.

We should not settle for anything other than great improvements in this contract. But expecting great improvements in every single line of the contract is being short sighted. Get substantial improvements where it matters most; mainly pay rates, scheduling, scope. The rest of the contract should just be similar to whoever has the better languange--this is not a concession.

Speaking of scope. We should focus on iron clad scope that covers all future acquistions by any company under Skywest Inc, transfer of aircraft, and growth aircraft as well. Any new airframes that Inc. buys or recieves should be split minimum 50/50 between ASA/SKYW. This will eliminate whipsaw and also stagnation. They don't have to whipsaw to just send every new airplane to SKYW while we sit at ASA with a 7, 8 or 9 year upgrade. Our ultimate long term goal should be to combine the lists into one airline. If we include this in our scope it will be a step in the right direction for a future merge with SKYW in the years to come.

 

[mxaviator]

Yes it is very different. Read our CBA. Also, Joe....You didnt save sh!t, and we have a larger pilot group that will vote in conjunction with yours. So it is probably a safe bet that what the XJT group wants more they will get. Soooo sorrrryy

Nice. I was just taken back to middle school, grow up.

 

[dojetdriver]

I agree with you completely. I believe what he was getting at was that if you have the richest contract in the world you run a greater risk of running your company out of business. I'm not saying that's what you guys did, but in an industry where profit margins are slim you can't expect to have a contract that is multiple 10%'s higher than the rest and stay competitive

And it's been beat to death. Either recently, or in 2008 when the SkyWest buy out and later the concession was going on. It's NOT the CBA's fault XJT is in the position they are. It's poor management and CAL squeezing XJT.

We should not settle for anything other than great improvements in this contract. But expecting great improvements in every single line of the contract is being short sighted. Get substantial improvements where it matters most; mainly pay rates, scheduling, scope. The rest of the contract should just be similar to whoever has the better languange--this is not a concession.

Agree. But some here on FI don't care one bit about pay, it's QOL they're after. You put a premium on pay based on your post. But reading BOTH contracts, one is slightly better than the other. So if some things are brought up, but others remain the ASA status quo, the MAJORITY of pilots on the new combined ASA list will be taking a concession, PERIOD. So saying "this is not a concession" isn't accurate.

Read Joe's other posts, he makes the argument about being "average". XJT's CBA isn't as good as what I got hired at in 2000, and later made better in 2001 and spent 5 years under. Myself, and many others at XJT have been at average, or below for a while.

Like said in another post, after 2 concessionary CBA's and a total of 4 pay cuts, I'm just not in the mood to give anymore. YMMV

 

[damnflyboy]

Speaking of scope. We should focus on iron clad scope that covers all future acquistions by any company under Skywest Inc, transfer of aircraft, and growth aircraft as well. Any new airframes that Inc. buys or recieves should be split minimum 50/50 between ASA/SKYW. This will eliminate whipsaw and also stagnation. They don't have to whipsaw to just send every new airplane to SKYW while we sit at ASA with a 7, 8 or 9 year upgrade. Our ultimate long term goal should be to combine the lists into one airline. If we include this in our scope it will be a step in the right direction for a future merge with SKYW in the years to come.

Please tell me that you are on the negotiating committee. If not, please consider it.