ASA JCBA: Timeline Thoughts?

[Master Shake]

Specifics please...How do have "much to lose"? Keep in mind, you folks have lost your company. The difference between our contracts isn't that much different.

We lost nothing. We had won a new contract with US Airways; which was subsequently canceled, just prior to the 2nd Skywest hostile takeover bid. The only reason that we went that route vs. telling Skywest to pound sand was pure greed. Greed on the part of our former CEO and 4 other VP's. Those buttholes made millions on the sale of this place while we were left holding the pieces.

So don't come at me with this holier than thou, we saved your bacon nonsense. Throughout this entire thread I have tried to professionally state what our entire group should be striving for. You coming in with your above statement does not foster a sense of unity and desire to make our collective lives better. Instead, it divides and creates a hostile atmosphere.

 

[NotTooBad]

Our work rules blow ASAs out of the water.

For productivity purposes could you please cite examples when you make these claims. This statement was useless to everyone who read it without anything to back it up.

 

[NotTooBad]

As has been mentioned, the rates I posted are accurate. Not caring about comparing pre concession XJT to current 2010 ASA rates, but the normal 4-6% should be added to the XJT rates as 2009 was the last year those were valid to establish the base line.



Agree, once you give up work rules, it's hard to get them back.



Key word, ONE poster. He was corrected by a later loster.



For my edification, how does ASA'a work? Ours is leg by leg as well. But that changes when the duty period becomes "modified". However, you will NEVER get paid less than what the duty period was worth when modified due to cancellations.



Been there, done that.

But like before, I have to disagree with you. If we settle for an "average" CBA, it means the majority of the pilots on the new combined list will be taking concessions.



And the attitude that "you folks have lost your company", or "ASA SAVED XJT so just suck it up" isn't going to help negotiation matters much. Try a different tact to get your point across. Sorry, but reading the current ASA CBA, there's more than one thing that got piggy backed off of XJT contract 04 in one form or another. And that's fine, that's how the pattern bargaining/"jacking up the house" system is supposed to work. But don't be under the impression that one pilot group owes the other pilot group anything.

I'm just happy as hell they bought a company that has something more to offer than what we had. Them having better parts in their contract can do nothing but help us. I'm just trying to figure out what they are still. I would love for the union to put out a bullet point comparison of what is in each contract. I intend to sit down and read it but I'm sure I'll miss quite a bit not knowing the "goodies" to look for.

 

[dojetdriver]

I'm just happy as hell they bought a company that has something more to offer than what we had. Them having better parts in their contract can do nothing but help us.

Agree, but like I've been saying, unless the best parts of BOTH CBA's are put together, then adjusted up from there, one group or the other is going to be taking a concession.

I'm just trying to figure out what they are still.

I asked JM how the cancellation policy works at ASA concerning leg by leg, and how it pays out. Waiting on a reply. Feel free to PM me if you wish with some of your pertinent questions on XJT's contract and I'll try to answer them. I'd love to see some of the more minute differences as well.

I would love for the union to put out a bullet point comparison of what is in each contract. I intend to sit down and read it but I'm sure I'll miss quite a bit not knowing the "goodies" to look for.

I would as well. Not at all for comparison purposes, but to see where both sides are weak, and both sides are strong. What may be worth leaving alone as it's good where it's at, and where negotiating capitol needs to be expended for a good CBA.

 

[dojetdriver]

I'm just trying to figure out what they are still. I would love for the union to put out a bullet point comparison of what is in each contract.

I'm just going through the Section 12/hours of Service of the ASA contract and have found numerous differences. Some where ASA is stronger, some where XJT is stronger.

 

[NotTooBad]

Agree, but like I've been saying, unless the best parts of BOTH CBA's are put together, then adjusted up from there, one group or the other is going to be taking a concession.



I asked JM how the cancellation policy works at ASA concerning leg by leg, and how it pays out. Waiting on a reply. Feel free to PM me if you wish with some of your pertinent questions on XJT's contract and I'll try to answer them. I'd love to see some of the more minute differences as well.



I would as well. Not at all for comparison purposes, but to see where both sides are weak, and both sides are strong. What may be worth leaving alone as it's good where it's at, and where negotiating capitol needs to be expended for a good CBA.

The cancellation pay policy at ASA is fairly simple. You get paid if the trip was on your schedule and subsequently removed for any reason. This includes cancellation pay or 30 in 7 or whatever. I can not think of a single scenario that I was not paid for a trip that was on my schedule unless I called in sick with no sick time or something that was my fault/problem. As far as cancellation specifically it works on a leg by leg basis I will give an example:

Leg 1: 1 Hour Credit
Leg 2: 1.5
Leg 3: 1.5
Leg 4: 1

As far as pay only you are guaranteed that 5 hours for the day no matter what. Assuming legs 2 & 3 are cancelled - the worst case scenario you sit around forever waiting on your last flight. If they "replace" leg 2 & 3 then you will be paid the higher of the options. Either ((1) the original 3 hours for the original legs or (2) The value of the new trip IF IT IS HIGHER). Simply put it always seems to work out to the higher of whatever in most all pay scenarios.

As far as getting rescheduled during this time period I think we are a little weak. I couldn't figure out a way to paraphrase easily so I just copied the section of the contract below.

K. Rescheduling and Extending

1. Reserve Pilots

A pilot holding a reserve line may be rescheduled and/or extended within the
limitations of Sections 12 and 13, however a reserve pilot will not be given any
assignment that takes place on an inviolate day.

2. Regular Pilots

a. After the publication of the final schedule, a pilot holding a regular line may
be rescheduled and/or extended. However, any rescheduled and/or
extended trip must remain within the day(s) of the original trip(s), regardless
of when the rescheduling and/or extension occurs or how many times the
pilot is rescheduled and/or extended. Rescheduling and/or extension must
be within the limitations in Sections 12 and 13.

b. Rescheduling and/or extending will be considered to be the same trip hour
period.

c. A regular pilot will not be required to remain available at a domicile airport
without an assignment beyond his assignment window of up to two (2)
hours (five (5) hours during IROP conditions) for the purpose of accepting
further assignment. The assignment window will begin the later of:

Notification of rescheduling, or

The last block-in, or

Report time.

d. The Company will make reasonable attempts to notify a pilot in a timely
manner of a known cancellation or reschedule.

e. If the Company removes a trip, or a portion of a trip, from a regular pilot, the
pilot will be;

(1) Assigned to a different trip(s), or portion(s) of a trip, or

(2) Returned to his original trip, or

(3) Placed on short-call reserve during the duty period(s) of the original trip
and will not be assigned ready reserve, or

(4) Required to remain available at the airport for the purpose of accepting
further assignment during his assignment window, or

(5) Released until his next original or rescheduled assignment or until he is
directed to resume his original or a rescheduled trip(s).

f. The pilot may be required to report immediately for an assignment made
during the assignment window. If an assignment is made during the
assignment window that is scheduled to depart more than three (3) hours
after the assignment has been made, the pilot will not be required to remain
at the airport.

If any of this information is inaccurate please PM me so that I can edit it so that I don't spread incorrect info.

 

[CiFIknow]

Jesus guys! I don't understand where there should be any anymosity between our two groups. We have an opportunity here.

I have been posting in regards to the good things we have in our contract and I would hope the ASA guys would do the same so that collectively we could get the best of both worlds. Just because I said that our pay rates are better isn't an insult to the ASA guys. I'm just saying "Hey, here's where we are.". Do we have better reserve rules? Yes. Could they be better? No doubt. Do you have things that are better than what we have? Yes. As Rodney King said..."Can't we all just get along?".

I hope that is the direction that we are taking. We are "Regional" pilots, but this is something new and we need to set the bar on this JCBA. I do not subscribe to JM's idea of wanting to just be average so I can keep my job until I am 65. In the town meeting with Brad and JN from our side on day one of the legal merger it was said that "something huge happened in the regional industry today". They know they have something good here. We should too. This is a good thing guys. This side of the industry is changing with consolidation just like the mainline carriers. Let us not let this opportunity pass us by because we are afraid to not be "average". God forbid we get a contract that actually compensates us for the responsibilty we have.

Rant off...

 

[Nevets]

Here is breakdown of ASA vs XJT pay rates based on the numbers you provided. This is ASA CRJ 200 Pilots vs XJT's Pre-concessionary pay rates that you posted. I have not verified that the numbers posted to XJT are correct. I copied ASA's rates straight out of the CBA.


ASA NOW XJT PRE CONCESSIONARY
(11/20/10) (NOT VERIFIED)
$56.39 65.28 ($8.89) -14%
$59.62 67.24 ($7.62) -11%
$63.67 69.25 ($5.58) -8%
$65.66 71.33 ($5.67) -8%
$67.67 73.47 ($5.80) -8%
$69.77 75.67 ($5.90) -8%
$71.93 77.19 ($5.26) -7%
$74.15 79.5 ($5.35) -7%
$76.43 81.89 ($5.46) -7%
$78.82 84.35 ($5.53) -7%
$81.26 86.88 ($5.62) -6%
$84.13 89.48 ($5.35) -6%
$86.35 92.17 ($5.82) -6%
$89.02 94.93 ($5.91) -6%
$91.78 96.83 ($5.05) -5%
$94.53 98.77 ($4.24) -4%
$96.89 100.74($3.85) -4%
$99.31 102.76($3.45) -3%

$23.00 24.5 ($1.50) -6%
$35.77 36.47 ($0.70) -2%
$38.20 38.73 ($0.53) -1%
$39.40 41.31 ($1.91) -5%
$40.60 42.55 ($1.95) -5%
$41.86 43.82 ($1.96) -4%
$43.16 45.14 ($1.98) -4%
46.49 ***** ***

You should also take into consideration that XJT has higher 401k matching and a defined contribution plan (B fund).

From the ASA contract the 401k matching is:
0 years of service 0%
1 years of service 1.2%
2 years of service 1.8%
3 years of service 2.4%
4-6 years of service 3.0%
7-9 years of service 4.5%
10+ years of service 6%

This is the XJT 401k matching AND B fund:
0-4 years of service 6.5%
5-9 years of service 9%
10-14 years of service 11%
15-19 years of service 11.5%
20+ years of service 12%

So the difference between the deferred compensation pay rates is (in favor of XJT):
0 years of service 6.5%
1 years of service 5.3%
2 years of service 4.7%
3 years of service 4.1%
4 years of service 3.5%
5-6 years of service 6.0%
7-9 years of service 4.5%
10-14 years of service 5.0%
15-19 years of service 5.5%
20+ years of service 6.0%

In other words, to make a true apples to apples comparison just on pay rates between our two contracts, take whatever payrate you want to compare from the XJT contract and multiply it by the percentage in the column above and compare the product to the corresponding rate in the ASA contract. Keep in mind that first year pay is equal to 0 years of service and second year pay is equal to 1 years of service.

I think that you will see that taking the XJT pre-concessionary rate adjusted for the difference in deferred compensation, you will see that its higher than the current Dec 1st pay rate for ASA's CRJ900s. Which is why I think the IPA/UPS model would work on this new contract.

 

[Nevets]

401k Matching - Contractual
1-5 yrs service 100% up to 4%
5-9 yrs service 100% up to 5%
10+ yrs service 100% up to 6%

Defined Contribution Plan - Contractual
1-5 years 2.5%
5-10 years 4%
10-15 years 5%
15-20 years 5.5%
20+ years 6%

Profit Sharing
50% of every dollar earned above $30 million annual pre-tax income

Snap Back Provisions
Pre-tax profit
$75 million = 25% snap back
$90 million = 50% snap back
$100 million = 100% snap back

No company job classification, including members of the BoD, will receive compensation, bonuses, or any other thing of value that raises their total income to a level greater than the maximum value of that compensation package provided for that classification, minus the minimum concessionary reductions of 6.78%. If the company restores compensation above the 6.78% concessionary level for the above individuals, the Association's pay rates will be increased by at least the same percentage.

The Chairman of the Association or his designee, along with the Association legal counsel, will be provided a briefing using the BoD briefing book on the same day as the BoD meeting by the company.

Contract amendable 11/30/2010

Line Holder guarantee: 75 hours
Reserve guarantee: 75 hours
Charter guarantee: 90 hours
Instructor guarantee: 90 hours

Ground Instructor pays: applicable longevity rate plus $12/hour override.
Aircraft/Simulator Instructor pays: applicable longevity rate plus $15/hour override.
Check Airman pays: applicable longevity rate plus $18/hour override.
Aircrew Program Designee pays: applicable longevity rate plus $21/hour override.
Minimum 5 hours per training event at override rate.
Charter pays: applicable longevity rate plus $18/hour override.
Minimum 5.5 hours per day at override rate.

Per Diem Rate: $1.80


SCHEDULING:
Line Holder: Min 12 days off per month
Reserve: Min 11 days off per 30 day bid period; Min 12 days off per 31 day bid period
Charter: Min 14 days off per month
Charter pilots are home based
Instructor: Min 12 days off per month

40 & 60 hour Reduced Flying Lines (RFL) - voluntary
Built between 37-43 or 57 - 63 hours respectively
Minimum of 18 or 16 days off per month respectively
Can trip trade but cannot pick up on days off
Can pick up Advertised trips

No Fly Lines (NFL) - voluntary
Monthly guarantee of 0, 25, or 40, as requested, paid out from sick bank
Cannot pick up open time or advertised trips

No PBS - Pilot Committee builds trips and lines.
Scheduled or rescheduled duty day will not exceed 13.5 hours or
11.5 hours for duty that begins between 2101LT to 0429LT (except for stand up trips).
Stand up trips not scheduled to exceed 14 hours, no layovers of less than 6 hours, and a maximum of 3 segments preceding the layover, and a maximum of 1 segment following the layover. These trips will not be built into lines; they will only be put in open time.
Maximum of six legs per duty day.
Regular lines will not average more than 88 block hours and no lines are built with more than 95 hours.
At least 2 days free from all duty will be scheduled between trips that operate between 0100 LT and 0400 LT and trips that do not operate between this period.
Trips will only be constructed with one to four day trips.
Lines will be constructed to provide at least 2 days off at the pilot’s domicile during any 7 consecutive day period.
A trip that operates between 0100 LT and 0400 LT will be constructed with no more than 2 segments.
Personal Drop with adequate coverage or crew scheduling consent.
Bad Day Worse Day Trades for line holders and reserve pilots.
Airport Standby (4 hours) - paid at 4 hours or trip value, whichever is greater
Short Call Reserve - 2 hour call out.
Long Call Reserve - 12 hour call out.
Aggressive Pick Up Window for reserve pilots.
Floating Reserve Lines - 2 extra days off.
The largest block of days off for reserve pilots are immovable.
Junior Manning is at 150% of the greater of:
-3.75 Hours per duty period
-Trip pay as calculated
No reassignment of line holder for trip picked up in open time
RED FLAG Open time can be picked up by line holders at JM pay (150%).
Commuter Clause: must have two flights with one seat available (can include the jumpseat) 24 hours before departure that arrives at least 30 minutes prior to show time.
Domicile trades on monthly basis
No fault fatigue policy - filed under ASAP
No fault sick call policy if accompanied by doctor's note

Compensation:
Paid the greater of:
• Scheduled block time
• Actual block time flown by segment
• Min daily guarantee of 2.0 hours
• 3.0 hours for calender day layover
100% cancellation pay
100% deadhead pay

New Hires:• Double Occupancy Hotel
• Uniforms are Payroll Deducted
• Jepps Supplied
• Per Diem during training ~$1500
• Once PC is complete, you begin receiving MMG (minimum monthly guarantee)
• Positive space travel provided to and from training and Home of record

Other pay Credits
• Drug Alcohol testing (30 minutes pay)
• CBT / Home study (1 hour pay for 2 hour study)
• Profit Sharing
• Customs at hubs (10 minutes pay)
• Ground repositioning (12 minutes for domestic airport except EWR, 24 minutes for EWR, 30 minutes for arrival from international destination)
• 150% pay for voluntarily training on day off
• 150% pay for trips picked up when reserve coverage is less than 10%

Vacation Accrual Rate
• Year 1: 7 days (7/12 days per month)
• Year 2-6: 14 days (14/12 days per month)
• Year 7-10: 21 days (21/12 days per month)
• Year 11+: 28 days (28/12 days per month)
Pay is 3.75 hours per day.
Paid the greater of monthly guarantee or line value. May pick up trips during vacation days or days off as add pay.
Instructors receive two additional personal days and holidays off with pay.

Sick Time Accrual Rate
5 hours per month starting from the month of ground school

Perfect Attendance Program
Two separate six month periods

Eligibility for FMLA
Yes - entitlement codified into contract

Emergency Leave
Up to 3 days with no reduction of monthly guarantee

Bereavement Leave
Four consecutive days with no reduction of monthly guarantee

Education Leave
A pilot may be granted an educational leave for a period not to exceed 1 year. At the end of the leave, he may apply for
additional educational leave.

Personal Leave
A personal leave of absence may be requested by a pilot

Adoption Assistance Program
Reimbursement for eligible adoption expenses

Scholarship Program
Assist employees, their children, or spouses who plan to continue education in college or vocational school programs. Scholarships are offered each year for study at an accredited institution of the student’s choice. Up to 15 awards for $1,500 dollars will be granted each year.

W.I.N.G.S. Program
When In Need Get Support – An employee-funded program for co-workers overcome by personal tragedies, natural disasters, or other situations creating a dire financial need.

Uniforms:
$150/year uniform allowance

Benefits:
Company will not increase the employee contribution to medical insurance to more than 25% (currently 23%)
Various health plans – (starts 1st day of 3rd month of employment)
Health Care plans - $15-313/mo depending type of plan, number covered and deductible
Prescription Drug Plan included in the medical plans
Dental (starts 1st day of 3rd month of employment) $20-113/mo depending on HMO/PPO and number of family members covered
Vision $10.56-26.20/mo depending on the number of family members covered
Flexible Spending Accounts - Health Care and Dependent Care
Short-term Disability
Long-term Disability- 55% of 85.5 hours at your applicable longevity rate
Life Insurance - equal to one year of your annual base pay paid by the company. Includes a terminal illness benefit.
Supplemental Life Insurance
Spouse Life Insurance
Child Life Insurance
Personal Accident Insurance -Provides a benefit if you die or suffer certain injuries as a result of a covered accident. Coverage available for you and your family.coverage between $50k - $500k
Business Accident Insurance - Provides benefits if you are injured while traveling on company business; $200,000 paid by the company

Employee Assistance Plan (free)
The Employee Assistance Program (EAP) is designed to help you and your family deal with personal difficulties. The EAP is a professional, confidential counseling service. The EAP will determine whether they will manage your care directly or if you will be referred to a provider in your area. Your consultations will be kept confidential.

Other Stuff:
Participates in ASAP and FOQA. In the process of getting AQP certification (1Q2011)
Bidding can be done via online system. Bid via default (line number order), or assign values to re-order the lines for yourself. You can pick how you want them ordered based on line value, types of trips (1day / 2day), days off, etc.
Automated trip trades, trip advertisements, and picking up of dropped trips of other crew members and open time via crew web site.

 

[NotTooBad]

You should also take into consideration that XJT has higher 401k matching and a defined contribution plan (B fund).

From the ASA contract the 401k matching is:
0 years of service 0%
1 years of service 1.2%
2 years of service 1.8%
3 years of service 2.4%
4-6 years of service 3.0%
7-9 years of service 4.5%
10+ years of service 6%

This is the XJT 401k matching AND B fund:
0-4 years of service 6.5%
5-9 years of service 9%
10-14 years of service 11%
15-19 years of service 11.5%
20+ years of service 12%

So the difference between the deferred compensation pay rates is (in favor of XJT):
0 years of service 6.5%
1 years of service 5.3%
2 years of service 4.7%
3 years of service 4.1%
4 years of service 3.5%
5-6 years of service 6.0%
7-9 years of service 4.5%
10-14 years of service 5.0%
15-19 years of service 5.5%
20+ years of service 6.0%

In other words, to make a true apples to apples comparison just on pay rates between our two contracts, take whatever payrate you want to compare from the XJT contract and multiply it by the percentage in the column above and compare the product to the corresponding rate in the ASA contract. Keep in mind that first year pay is equal to 0 years of service and second year pay is equal to 1 years of service.

I think that you will see that taking the XJT pre-concessionary rate adjusted for the difference in deferred compensation, you will see that its higher than the current Dec 1st pay rate for ASA's CRJ900s. Which is why I think the IPA/UPS model would work on this new contract.

It really wasn't a comparison of the retirement or profit sharing program or mmg or duty rigs or anything else that affects out total income package. This was simply an assessment of hourly pay rates. It was very much apples to apples. I never claimed it was a full picture of our total compensation package just a simple comparison of 50 seat pay rates between the two companies.

 

[NotTooBad]

Thank you very much for posting all of that information nevets. I will try to make a comparison to the ASA contract and post it for your review.

 

[Nevets]

It really wasn't a comparison of the retirement or profit sharing program or mmg or duty rigs or anything else that affects out total income package. This was simply an assessment of hourly pay rates. It was very much apples to apples. I never claimed it was a full picture of our total compensation package just a simple comparison of 50 seat pay rates between the two companies.

It was an apples to oranges comparison in the simple fact that XJT chose to defer some of their hourly rates into the 401k match and B fund. In other words, XJT could have used the negotiating capital to get the 401k match and B fund to get a corresponding higher payrate. Conversely, ASA could have used negotiating capital they used to get payrates in order to get better 401k matching and a B fund. It just so happens to be that you can mathematically quantify how much the 401k match and B fund "cost.". It's not like trying to quantify duty rigs into a specific dollar amount like you can do down to the penny with 401k matching and B funds.

 

[dojetdriver]

This was simply an assessment of hourly pay rates.[/QUOTE

It was an apples to oranges comparison in the simple fact that XJT chose to defer some of their hourly rates into the 401k match and B fund. In other words, XJT could have used the negotiating capital to get the 401k match and B fund to get a corresponding higher payrate. Conversely, ASA could have used negotiating capital they used to get payrates in order to get better 401k matching and a B fund. It just so happens to be that you can mathematically quantify how much the 401k match and B fund "cost.". It's not like trying to quantify duty rigs into a specific dollar amount like you can do down to the penny with 401k matching and B funds.

Sorry Nevets, but I'm more inclined to agree with NTB. The hourly rates are what they are, and don't change till they're negotiated. Where as the 401K, and the resulting match is a highly subjective form of "compensation". As well was the standard market fluctuations. The pilot can elect to not contribute and invest they're money elsewhere. The pilot can invest in their own business, whatever investments they have, real estate, etc. It's the pilot's choice by simply going to the website and adjusting up or down the contribution, or simply not participate.

I know, in your quest to always be right, you'll take the stance that XJT's compensation is higher due to the 401K, etc. We'll just have to agree to disagree if you do. It's just like the profit sharing increasing our W2's. That's great and all, IF we're getting profit sharing checks.

NotTooBad, if you want, I can take the Hours of Service section of both CBA's and make the point by point comparison.

 

[NotTooBad]

It was an apples to oranges comparison in the simple fact that XJT chose to defer some of their hourly rates into the 401k match and B fund. In other words, XJT could have used the negotiating capital to get the 401k match and B fund to get a corresponding higher payrate. Conversely, ASA could have used negotiating capital they used to get payrates in order to get better 401k matching and a B fund. It just so happens to be that you can mathematically quantify how much the 401k match and B fund "cost.". It's not like trying to quantify duty rigs into a specific dollar amount like you can do down to the penny with 401k matching and B funds.

I 100% agree that to get the better retirement you likely sacrificed in the hourly pay rate department. I do however think that is irrelevant in a comparison of pay rates. Everything in negotiations has a monetary value. Pay rates, retirement, Duty rigs, MMG, Reserve rules, insurance, profit sharing, max duty day rules - everything. That is much of the debate during negotiations; how much will it really cost to cut out max work day by 1 hour? 401k & retirement is of course no exception to this rule but if we are including that why would we not include the 3% a year I make at ASA from the profit sharing program (Called performance + payouts)? Why not include that you have a much larger life insurance payout in the event of a business related death? All of these things affect our compensation. Health insurance is also a large consideration in both of our compensation packages. To really evaluate you must break each thing down to an apples to apples comparison. The result will likely be isolating item by item and comparing each apple to each apple and leaving the oranges on the table for the next review.

 

[Nevets]

Sorry Nevets, but I'm more inclined to agree with NTB. The hourly rates are what they are, and don't change till they're negotiated. Where as the 401K, and the resulting match is a highly subjective form of "compensation". As well was the standard market fluctuations. The pilot can elect to not contribute and invest they're money elsewhere. The pilot can invest in their own business, whatever investments they have, real estate, etc. It's the pilot's choice by simply going to the website and adjusting up or down the contribution, or simply not participate.

I know, in your quest to always be right, you'll take the stance that XJT's compensation is higher due to the 401K, etc. We'll just have to agree to disagree if you do. It's just like the profit sharing increasing our W2's. That's great and all, IF we're getting profit sharing checks.

NotTooBad, if you want, I can take the Hours of Service section of both CBA's and make the point by point comparison.

Quest to be right? I've been proven wrong enough on these boards not to be on a "quest to be right." I just state facts and opinions as I know them to be in good faith. In fact, I've been proven wrong by you on at least one occasion. I have no problem with learning something new even if it means I'm wrong. Anyway...

The matching part of the 401k is a specific dollar amount depending on your payrate. If you decide to leave that money on the table by not at least contributing up to your contractual match, that is up to you. Its the same as not pay claiming your repo pay. Contractually you are entitled to that specific dollar amount according to your payrate but if you rather not take your money, the company wont stop you.

As for the B fund contribution, you don't even have to participate at all in the 401k to get that money. That is partly why its called "deferred compensation." As for profit sharing, you are right. That is never guaranteed money and why I didn't include it. In fact, apparently that was a freebie anyways and no negotiating capital was used in getting it.

But hey, I sold my model airplane for $20 on ebay so I'll go ahead include that as well. jk

I 100% agree that to get the better retirement you likely sacrificed in the hourly pay rate department. I do however think that is irrelevant in a comparison of pay rates. Everything in negotiations has a monetary value. Pay rates, retirement, Duty rigs, MMG, Reserve rules, insurance, profit sharing, max duty day rules - everything. That is much of the debate during negotiations; how much will it really cost to cut out max work day by 1 hour? 401k & retirement is of course no exception to this rule but if we are including that why would we not include the 3% a year I make at ASA from the profit sharing program (Called performance + payouts)? Why not include that you have a much larger life insurance payout in the event of a business related death? All of these things affect our compensation. Health insurance is also a large consideration in both of our compensation packages. To really evaluate you must break each thing down to an apples to apples comparison. The result will likely be isolating item by item and comparing each apple to each apple and leaving the oranges on the table for the next review.

The reason why it should be included is because its specifically "deferred compensation." Its not a work rule, its part of our actual compensation (money in the bank literally) that we are guaranteed. As for the performance bonuses, its the same reason why I don't include profit sharing. Its not deferred compensation and its certainly NEVER guaranteed as the 401k match and B fund company contribution is ALWAYS guaranteed.

 

[dojetdriver]

The matching part of the 401k is a specific dollar amount depending on your payrate

And you missed the point again. X amount of hours times Y amount of hourly rates equals a hard number. X amount of 401K contribution plus Y amount of company contribution is fluid, and depends on a whole slew of variables. How much that money is worth at a later date unknown.

As for the B fund contribution

Hence the reason I left it out and stuck with the 401K.

Its not deferred compensation and its certainly NEVER guaranteed as the 401k match and B fund company contribution is ALWAYS guaranteed.

But subject to things like stock market volatility, economic crash, fund performance, investment options, etc. My paycheck is a hard number, what the 401K will be worth in the future, who knows?

 

[Nevets]

And you missed the point again. X amount of hours times Y amount of hourly rates equals a hard number. X amount of 401K contribution plus Y amount of company contribution is fluid, and depends on a whole slew of variables. How much that money is worth at a later date unknown.



Hence the reason I left it out and stuck with the 401K.



But subject to things like stock market volatility, economic crash, fund performance, investment options, etc. My paycheck is a hard number, what the 401K will be worth in the future, who knows?

Your only beef is with the 401k match but not the B fund contribution? In that case, what about subtracting 10% of the matching percentage to get a real compensation amount since that is the penalty you'll pay for immediately withdrawing that money? So a 6% match would actually be valued at 5.4%? Although I still feel that that match would have gone to payrates instead if we didnt negotiate for it since to the company it's the same amount they are paying out regardless. Also, the way I understand their performance bonuses is that it's paid out in cash. The amount depending on four metrics and which tier reached on each metric and whether the company was profitable that quarter. So it's just like profit sharing in that it's never guaranteed and not subject to the stock market, of course unless you decide to put it there.

 

[NotTooBad]

Your only beef is with the 401k match but not the B fund contribution? In that case, what about subtracting 10% of the matching percentage to get a real compensation amount since that is the penalty you'll pay for immediately withdrawing that money? So a 6% match would actually be valued at 5.4%? Although I still feel that that match would have gone to payrates instead if we didnt negotiate for it since to the company it's the same amount they are paying out regardless. Also, the way I understand their performance bonuses is that it's paid out in cash. The amount depending on four metrics and which tier reached on each metric and whether the company was profitable that quarter. So it's just like profit sharing in that it's never guaranteed and not subject to the stock market, of course unless you decide to put it there.

I get all of the arguments presented. My question is why not just say pay v pay, 401k v 401k, B Plan v Non Existent, Non Existent v Profit Sharing, so on a so forth with each major section of the agreement. We are very capable of assessing things individually and if we are going to make a collective sheet that displays the "comparison" of each item why not just separate all categories and let each person prioritize them for themselves? By drawing a comparison in the way above we can see that "XJT has a great benefit in the retirement department - not only is their 401k higher but they also have B plan options - but wait on the ASA side the company has an existing policy of profit sharing that XJT can expect to gain". I'm not saying these are "competing" but it should be a good way for us pilots get a better idea of what we can expect to gain that the other already has.

I am willing to spend some time and create the comparisons for certain parts of the agreement. Is anyone willing to offer some time to create a coordinated comparison and then email it to me and I'll compile in into one document and post it?

 

[NotTooBad]

This was simply an assessment of hourly pay rates.[/QUOTE


NotTooBad, if you want, I can take the Hours of Service section of both CBA's and make the point by point comparison.

I would love for you too. Give me a bit and I'll come up with what I think is the most important parts. This will def be one of those. Create and compare whatever you wish. If you can manage to put it in a word doc I'll give you my email address and I'll create a chart to compare each thing with the information you provide.

 

[dojetdriver]

Your only beef is with the 401k match but not the B fund contribution? In that case, what about subtracting 10% of the matching percentage to get a real compensation amount since that is the penalty you'll pay for immediately withdrawing that money? So a 6% match would actually be valued at 5.4%? Although I still feel that that match would have gone to payrates instead if we didnt negotiate for it since to the company it's the same amount they are paying out regardless. Also, the way I understand their performance bonuses is that it's paid out in cash. The amount depending on four metrics and which tier reached on each metric and whether the company was profitable that quarter. So it's just like profit sharing in that it's never guaranteed and not subject to the stock market, of course unless you decide to put it there.

Congrats, you FINALLY got was I was trying to say. Not only here, but the thread on the crackpipe from months ago.