ASA/expressjet & skywest

[JoeMerchant]

Sure, I know its business. And I understand he has a fiduciary responsibility solely to the shareholders of SKYW. That doesn't mean you don't treat people with dignity and respect.

With all due respect, Jerry and Skywest Inc. do treat people with dignity and respect. I can tell you for a fact, that we are treated better than any other management we have had. There is a reason that Skywest keeps voting against a union. I would rather work for good management without a union than with bad management with union. In other words, I would rather work for Skywest than for Mesa. I assume you would rather work for Mesa.

It doesn't matter how smart, good, or rich he or Inc is, what he is doing is not good business ethics. I rather take my chances, however little you think they are, by staying independent than being a part of this.

It does matter how smart, good and rich Skywest Inc. is...It give you more options and more bargaining power. It's much better to work for a profitable strong company rather than a weak unprofitable company.

Yeah, thats exactly what I understood you to think. So we only disagree on the gauge of the aircraft that should be outsourced. That's fine. I agree to disagree with you on that and move on.

Why outsource anything then? What "gauge" is OK and why? Why does a single seat make a difference? I don't understand the whole "this is just a "regional" airplane" argument. They are all the same from the cockpit door forward....

If that is true, then from my point of view and how JA and BR treated us, it just doesn't say much about your previous managment. And I never said I'm not for consolidation and some reduction of competition so we agree there as well.

We had some very bad management in the past, and that is why I said I would rather work for good management without ALPA rather than bad management with ALPA. Good management trumps bad management with ALPA.

Let me ask you an honest question. Without spin, try and answer it truthfully. What current regional management would you rather work for if you didn't work for Jerry...Feel free to pick any out there. Tell me which one would treat you better.

 

[Nevets]

With all due respect, Jerry and Skywest Inc. do treat people with dignity and respect. I can tell you for a fact, that we are treated better than any other management we have had. There is a reason that Skywest keeps voting against a union. I would rather work for good management without a union than with bad management with union. In other words, I would rather work for Skywest than for Mesa. I assume you would rather work for Mesa.

They have not treated XJT pilots with any hint of dignity and respect. They don't want to honor our contract that this pilot group voted for. Just because you are treated better than Mesa, TSA, or your old ASA management, doesn't say much. There is a reason why they keep voting for no union but it has to do more with wool over the eyes otherwise ASA would have voted alpa out 5 years ago. I would rather work for good managemenet and with a union. SWA is a perfect example in the airline industry.

It does matter how smart, good and rich Skywest Inc. is...It give you more options and more bargaining power. It's much better to work for a profitable strong company rather than a weak unprofitable company.

What I'm saying is that you don't compromise yourself because because they are a genius or have lots of money. You do what is right regardless.

Why outsource anything then? What "gauge" is OK and why? Why does a single seat make a difference? I don't understand the whole "this is just a "regional" airplane" argument. They are all the same from the cockpit door forward....

Yeah, bring on the 100 seat airplane to ASA/XJT!

Let me ask you an honest question. Without spin, try and answer it truthfully. What current regional management would you rather work for if you didn't work for Jerry...Feel free to pick any out there. Tell me which one would treat you better.

The one I'm stuck with now. Ive said that numerous times that I rather not be part of JA's plan to blatantly try to violate our succersorship clause.

By the way, if JA was so interested in reducing competition, he would have agreed to one list two years ago. But it took him more than two years, a team of lawyers, and him throwing ASA under the bus (in his view), to try to circumnavigate our contract and still be left with two entities anyways. If he truly had altruistic intentions, he would have no problems honoring our hard fought contract.

 

[JoeMerchant]

They have not treated XJT pilots with any hint of dignity and respect. They don't want to honor our contract that this pilot group voted for. Just because you are treated better than Mesa, TSA, or your old ASA management, doesn't say much. There is a reason why they keep voting for no union but it has to do more with wool over the eyes otherwise ASA would have voted alpa out 5 years ago. I would rather work for good managemenet and with a union. SWA is a perfect example in the airline industry.

An ALPA vote at ASA would be very close and that is why ALPA hasn't pushed a single list hard between ASA and Skywest. You have a different pilot group at XJT that generally likes ALPA. ASA along with CMR and other established regionals have a more love/hate relationship with ALPA. Remember the PID and RJDC.

A combined list with ASA/SKW might result in ALPA being tossed to the curb and for that reason, ALPA never persued it. Many of us might vote against ALPA if the deal was right.

SWA worked because BOTH sides worked together....It takes BOTH sides to work. The SWA pilots union gave mangement flexiblity and didn't burdent them with expensive pension plans. In exchange, management gave the union other things they wanted and a profitable growing company.

Yeah, bring on the 100 seat airplane to ASA/XJT!

Not sure what you mean here. Heck, bring on 757s like our fellow Jazz brothers and sisters are getting ready to fly. Either we are together, or we are separate....ALPA and the mainline want us separate....So be it. It was a mistake to make aircraft type or propulsion or stage length a litmus test of being a "real pilot" or a "real airline"....The chickens have come home to roost..

The one I'm stuck with now. Ive said that numerous times that I rather not be part of JA's plan to blatantly try to violate our succersorship clause.

By the way, if JA was so interested in reducing competition, he would have agreed to one list two years ago. But it took him more than two years, a team of lawyers, and him throwing ASA under the bus (in his view), to try to circumnavigate our contract and still be left with two entities anyways. If he truly had altruistic intentions, he would have no problems honoring our hard fought contract.

He doesn't want to mix the union/non-union side and quite frankly I don't blame him. I'm all for a single list and actually have advocated in the past. I also understand the competition issue and the seniority list integration issue. Quite frankly, it's not going to be a cake walk with the ASA/XJT integration.

I'm all for including the Skywest pilots into the mix as they are generally more like the ASA pilots than the XJT pilots...They have a more senior group and are also sceptical of ALPA as are we...Bring it on....

Has your current management ever violated your agreement? If so, how often?

 

[rjacobs]

ASA along with CMR and other established regionals have a more love/hate relationship with ALPA.

What classifies as "established" in your terms?

We have guys from Bar Harbor that were hired in the 70's and the rest of the airlines(Britt, Rocky Mountain, and PBA) that ended up forming COEX in the 80's. Just because the current ExpressJet wasnt officially formed until 2002, does not mean we are not an established airline.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What classifies as "established" in your terms?

We have guys from Bar Harbor that were hired in the 70's and the rest of the airlines(Britt, Rocky Mountain, and PBA) that ended up forming COEX in the 80's. Just because the current ExpressJet wasnt officially formed until 2002, does not mean we are not an established airline.

You are, but it is clear that most of your pilots wanted to move on and did with the flowthrough. I was hired at ASA in 1994 and am number 190 out of about 1800. At XJT, I would be number 14 with what appears are at least 2 who aren't even line pilots because of their age above me. 1996 gets you near the top at XJT and it would put you in the 200s here.

We have more "lifers" and we generally aren't as enamored with ALPA as you guys are. I've noticed that the biggest ALPA supporters come from XJT and PNCL...they must serve better koolaid on those properties.

 

[buscap]

I can hardly wait for someone to say "well, my Dad can beat up your dad!!"

 

[rjacobs]

You are, but it is clear that most of your pilots wanted to move on and did with the flowthrough. I was hired at ASA in 1994 and am number 190 out of about 1800. At XJT, I would be number 14 with what appears are at least 2 who aren't even line pilots because of their age above me. 1996 gets you near the top at XJT and it would put you in the 200s here.

We have more "lifers" and we generally aren't as enamored with ALPA as you guys are. I've noticed that the biggest ALPA supporters come from XJT and PNCL...they must serve better koolaid on those properties.

We had a lot of guys move on, but it wasnt because of the flow through. More guys left after flow expired than during it.

I think at XJT we think decently of ALPA because we have had a decent relationship with our company(up until the past year or so). ALPA has nothing to do with it IMO, if we were still IACP, and history had repeated itself with the path the company took and we still had a decent relationship with the company, than we wouldnt be having this ALPA vs. non-ALPA argument. Just my opinion.

 

[Nevets]

An ALPA vote at ASA would be very close and that is why ALPA hasn't pushed a single list hard between ASA and Skywest. You have a different pilot group at XJT that generally likes ALPA. ASA along with CMR and other established regionals have a more love/hate relationship with ALPA. Remember the PID and RJDC.

A combined list with ASA/SKW might result in ALPA being tossed to the curb and for that reason, ALPA never persued it. Many of us might vote against ALPA if the deal was right.

Of course makes sense since only 1/3 of the pilots at SKW voted for ALPA and the ones that didn't outnumber ALL of ASA. If it was a narrow defeat, things may be different as far as pursuing a single list.

SWA worked because BOTH sides worked together....It takes BOTH sides to work. The SWA pilots union gave mangement flexiblity and didn't burdent them with expensive pension plans. In exchange, management gave the union other things they wanted and a profitable growing company.

And that is the same reason why it worked at XJT. And that is also the reason why there are more fans of ALPA here. Its like the guys blaming ALPA at Mesa or TSA for how bad it is over there. As if it would be better if there was no union. JO and HK would be making things 100 times worse for those guys if it wasn't for ALPA.

Not sure what you mean here. Heck, bring on 757s like our fellow Jazz brothers and sisters are getting ready to fly. Either we are together, or we are separate....ALPA and the mainline want us separate....So be it. It was a mistake to make aircraft type or propulsion or stage length a litmus test of being a "real pilot" or a "real airline"....The chickens have come home to roost..

Yeah, outsource the 757s over to ASA/XJT.

He doesn't want to mix the union/non-union side and quite frankly I don't blame him. I'm all for a single list and actually have advocated in the past. I also understand the competition issue and the seniority list integration issue. Quite frankly, it's not going to be a cake walk with the ASA/XJT integration.

I don't blame unethical business men for trying to make a few million either but that doesn't make it right. This is what I don't get JA's stance on non-union. You have made a good case that it can work when management deals with unions. You give good examples at SWA and ASA. We made a good example of it as well. But many of us know why he plays both ends. He wants to continue the whipsaw. Its not about reducing competition or integration issues. Hell, BR makes a huge deal on the call about $70M in savings on synergy. Well if it saves that much money to merge two operations why don't they do it for all three? Like I said, many of us know why.

I'm all for including the Skywest pilots into the mix as they are generally more like the ASA pilots than the XJT pilots...They have a more senior group and are also sceptical of ALPA as are we...Bring it on....

Hey, skepticism is good. At least we agree here...bring it on!

Has your current management ever violated your agreement? If so, how often?

Unfortunately, in the last 6 months they have been violating left and right. We went from having maybe one or two group grievances open (which only three had gone to arbitration since the contract was signed) and a couple dozen individual ones to having a half dozen or more group grievances (with many of them scheduled for arbitration) and who knows how many individual ones. Unfortunately, management is starting to figure out that if they don't work with us, we don't work with them. And yet, things are relatively good when compared to others.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

I don't speak for anyone other than myself. We didn't pick this fight with JA. He is doing it to himself. None of this would be an issue if he just respected our contract. This is why I don't like him. He tried it two years ago and whipsawed us and he is trying to do it again. I've made it clear I would prefer the deal fall thru.

Is your current management respecting your contract?

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

That's ok with me. For me personally after seeing for myself the Inc whipsaw, I rather stay independent of skw than to let this blatant disrespect for our pilots and contract go without trying to uphold it. It's too bad JA is making everyone lawyer up over this.

The "SKWY whipsaw" isn't as bad as you think it is.

 

[Nevets]

Is your current management respecting your contract?

Not as much as they used to 6 months ago.

The "SKWY whipsaw" isn't as bad as you think it is.

I was in the room when JA and BR said we needed to be cost competitive and should take a 16% concession to bring us down to parity with SKW. CAL told our ceo to give them as good of a deal as SKW or they would give the 12 months notice. Of course SKW cpa with CAL took the 16% concession into consideration since they wouldn't agree to the buyout unless the MEC agreed. So our ceo signs the skw cpa, we lose money, they come asking for concession, and here we are again.

The SKW whipsaw is worse than what I've made it seem so far!

 

[skootertrash]

You are, but it is clear that most of your pilots wanted to move on and did with the flowthrough. I was hired at ASA in 1994 and am number 190 out of about 1800. At XJT, I would be number 14 with what appears are at least 2 who aren't even line pilots because of their age above me. 1996 gets you near the top at XJT and it would put you in the 200s here.

We have more "lifers" and we generally aren't as enamored with ALPA as you guys are. I've noticed that the biggest ALPA supporters come from XJT and PNCL...they must serve better koolaid on those properties.

Actualy John, you're 190 out of 1654. Which puts you at 11%. So do you believe that in a DOH situation you should be 4% of an even larger pilot group and gain 6% system seniority?

 

[twott driver]

I don't have the time to read all these posts, so it may already have been discussed. However, another possibility is that while xjt and management thrash out their differences over an extended period of time, ASA could conceivebly be awarded any new aircraft in the meantime, in a continuation of the whipsaw game in a effort to get the xjt pilots on board. Things are going to get interesting, that's for sure, and I have little doubt that Inc will bring all the pressure they can to bare on the pilot groups

 

[cybourg10]

If the 3 way does not pan out based on the arbitration we at XJT are MUCH better off with ASA than on our own. It has been said over and over again by XJT management that we can not make money on our crappy CAL CPA. We will get some kind of raises with this new deal so that plus being a part of a profitable company is not worth killing the deal altogether (I don't think the XJT pilots could kill this deal anyway, it is not like we aren't going to work with our ALPA brothers just because we don't like the situation).

 

[buscap]

I typed this in the seniority thread by accident, which had degenerated into a pizzing contest. More appropriate here.


My stance is that the aquisition would be a good thing for all three pilot groups, the Express contract should not be circumnavigated, but an ASA/Express merger is better than completely killing the deal. Unfortunately, any willingness to bend on the three-way will be exploited. It is enforceable only if the Express pilots are willing to kill the deal over it and live with the ramifications, be they good or bad.

So that's the choice the Express pilots must make. No matter which one is made, the ASA pilots should offer support, for there's not much else we can do anyway. It's the Express contract which we are being used to circumnavigate and it is the Express pilot's decision to make, as to what to do about it.

To make a bunch of noise about whom is aquiring whom and whose contract is better and who has taken what concessions and blah blah blah; all that just makes us at ASA sound like a bunch of opportunistic idiots.

How would the pilots at ASA feel if it was the scope clause of our contract was being circumnavigated?

And to the pilots of Express on this board I would say, get over yourselves a bit. Give this deal serious consideration-three way and two way. Skywest is a good place to be. There has been some whipsaw, but I don't want to think about where we would be without Skywest, aka Comair?

Jerry is known as a shrewed businessmen and I believe the rep is well and proudly earned, but he is not out to ruin anyone. I submit that the pilots of Transtates, Mesa and Comair would most likely love to be working for Jerry.

 

[Nevets]

I don't have the time to read all these posts, so it may already have been discussed. However, another possibility is that while xjt and management thrash out their differences over an extended period of time, ASA could conceivebly be awarded any new aircraft in the meantime, in a continuation of the whipsaw game in a effort to get the xjt pilots on board. Things are going to get interesting, that's for sure, and I have little doubt that Inc will bring all the pressure they can to bare on the pilot groups

Exactly why one list is necessary. But it wouldn't be ASA they award the flying to. They haven't said who the 75 replacement and 15 growth aircraft are slated to either. I know that is not on purpose. The fact that everyone knows that your management is capable of even threatening to do this is exactly the reason why we need one list.

If the 3 way does not pan out based on the arbitration we at XJT are MUCH better off with ASA than on our own. It has been said over and over again by XJT management that we can not make money on our crappy CAL CPA. We will get some kind of raises with this new deal so that plus being a part of a profitable company is not worth killing the deal altogether (I don't think the XJT pilots could kill this deal anyway, it is not like we aren't going to work with our ALPA brothers just because we don't like the situation).

I tend agree with you that this deal is done regardless. So we have nothing to lose by pushing this to the maximum. But I disagree that we are better off with two lists. They will use us against each other. If the deal is broken off, we are just as valuable to others as we were to SKW. And we are way to valuable to CAL for them to let us whither on the vine. If we weren't and we were on such dire straits, they would have just let us go into bankruptcy and let others pick up our pieces. Hell, that would be easier for SKW with their anti one list mentality. Which proves we have leverage in this. Don't sell your ideology short just because you rather live with the master with the mansion versus the one with the shack.

Keep in mind that we went from losing over $30M a quarter operationally to $8M. Another CPA with Airways or increased block hours from UAL/CAL and we may have finished turning the corner.

 

[cybourg10]

I tend agree with you that this deal is done regardless. So we have nothing to lose by pushing this to the maximum. But I disagree that we are better off with two lists. They will use us against each other. If the deal is broken off, we are just as valuable to others as we were to SKW. And we are way to valuable to CAL for them to let us whither on the vine. If we weren't and we were on such dire straits, they would have just let us go into bankruptcy and let others pick up our pieces. Hell, that would be easier for SKW with their anti one list mentality. Which proves we have leverage in this. Don't sell your ideology short just because you rather live with the master with the mansion versus the one with the shack.

Keep in mind that we went from losing over $30M a quarter operationally to $8M. Another CPA with Airways or increased block hours from UAL/CAL and we may have finished turning the corner.

Airways certainly could have bought us some time but the margins would have been so thin it most likely would not have made much of a dent.

You are forgetting that we get to negotiate a new JCBA with brand new language that can prevent Inc from taking any of our airplanes at any time. The free for all whipsaw game that you and others predict does not have to happen based on what we negotiate. Now this is not as preferable as one list but we do have some leverage here and can prevent the aircraft switch-a-roo game.

 

[Nevets]

Airways certainly could have bought us some time but the margins would have been so thin it most likely would not have made much of a dent.

You are forgetting that we get to negotiate a new JCBA with brand new language that can prevent Inc from taking any of our airplanes at any time. The free for all whipsaw game that you and others predict does not have to happen based on what we negotiate. Now this is not as preferable as one list but we do have some leverage here and can prevent the aircraft switch-a-roo game.

Yeah, I understand that if we lose this round for one list, SKW will just whipsaw us during contract negotiations. I personally don't think the language ASA has in their contract now is nearly strong enough to begin with. All this is why I am not afraid to push as hard as the law will allow to enforce our contract NOW!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

JA and BH are pure profiteers, you are just a cost that has to be managed. When JA let chippy try to eliminate the health care that proved their position. JA and BH have F&H on speed dial and will do whatever will provide the largest profit margin, and if it means your health will suffer, sorry its just business.
Wait you will see.
PBR

 

[outtahere]

Where do skywest pilots stand on this issue? Do you all want to join the party, or stay on your on?