ASA/expressjet & skywest

[Nevets]

Why did you guys vote for paycuts?

It was a philosophical argument. Some people thought that we should and give the company a chance at remaining independent and others thought we should ride it out and take our chances as is. The MEC let the pilots decide with the caveout that this was a one time deal. Now I think that even the people that won the concession argument feel like the ones who didn't want concessions in the first place. Everybody has a line they draw and to me it seems XJT has drawn their line.

 

[Nevets]

I would say his line of thinking is similar to the majority at ASA. Why did XJT take concessions?

For years I and others pushed for single lists and brand scope....It fell on deaf ears. Now we have to deal with the reality of this failure.

Ironically, the "evil" SKYW and RAH are doing what ALPA couldn't....reducing competition. Sometimes it wise to choose the ally that can actually deliver on what you want......

Well then it's a good thing we outnumber you. I don't mind using skw anti labor antics as a tool to reduce competition but not at the further expense of the profession.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It was a philosophical argument. Some people thought that we should and give the company a chance at remaining independent and others thought we should ride it out and take our chances as is. The MEC let the pilots decide with the caveout that this was a one time deal. Now I think that even the people that won the concession argument feel like the ones who didn't want concessions in the first place. Everybody has a line they draw and to me it seems XJT has drawn their line.

So basically, you took concessions to try and "survive" the competition...How is that different? Didn't your pilot group essentially vote to do what they thought was best regardless of how it affected the "profession"?

 

[Nevets]

So basically, you took concessions to try and "survive" the competition...How is that different? Didn't your pilot group essentially vote to do what they thought was best regardless of how it affected the "profession"?

The MEC went along with it in part becuase even after concessions our pay and work rules would still be superior to everyone else. As a pilot group we didn't affect the profession negatively with our concessions.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well then it's a good thing we outnumber you.

If that's the belief of the majority of your pilots, then you aren't exactly starting off on a good foot with your new fellow pilots....Remember, we are buying you. We also seem to have more in common with the Skywest pilots in that case....Maybe you should push for the 3 way integration then....

I'm sorry you don't like your management. I'm sorry you don't like Skywest. I'm sorry you took concessions....Maybe you should leave those thoughts behind and come on over with an open mind.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The MEC went along with it in part becuase even after concessions our pay and work rules would still be superior to everyone else. As a pilot group we didn't affect the profession negatively with our concessions.

Then why even take them in the first place if it still made you the highest paid.....Sounds like more excuses to me...

I hope you are in the minority, because quite frankly I'm not interested in being "lectured" by you or any other XJT pilot about how bad our PBS is from a group that voted for pay cuts...

 

[Nevets]

If that's the belief of the majority of your pilots, then you aren't exactly starting off on a good foot with your new fellow pilots....Remember, we are buying you. We also seem to have more in common with the Skywest pilots in that case....Maybe you should push for the 3 way integration then....

I'm sorry you don't like your management. I'm sorry you don't like Skywest. I'm sorry you took concessions....Maybe you should leave those thoughts behind and come on over with an open mind.

Obviously we bring great value to Inc. Otherwise they wouldn't be buying us after two years on the first attempt and coming up with a scheme to circumnavigate our contract. JA told us two years ago we would be bk in 6 to 9 months and here we are still. If he truly beleived we are on the brink as many hear make it seem like we are, he would just let us go bk before trying to buy us with the risk of ending up as one list. My personal feeling is if he doesn't want to honor our contract, leave us alone.

 

[Nevets]

Then why even take them in the first place if it still made you the highest paid.....Sounds like more excuses to me...

I hope you are in the minority, because quite frankly I'm not interested in being "lectured" by you or any other XJT pilot about how bad our PBS is from a group that voted for pay cuts...

Management came to us and said we need x amount in concessions. We decided that if we agreed to do it that it would come out solely from pay rates. Spreadsheet showed that even with the amount of concessions management asked for, they would still be industry leading. We ended up getting three work rules out of it as well.

Look, we both took our concessions. We took ours as pay rate cuts. We could have taken part of them thru PBS like you guys did. I just feel that most of us have drawn the line there and dont want to take further concesions especially with these shinanigans JA seems admament on disrespecting u with. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[outtahere]

You make it sound as if you are the greatest pilot group in all of the land, an by God I'll hold up the profession on my back alone!! Well, good luck with that. I'm also of the opinion that we should make more money, with more days off, flying bigger planes. That sounds great, but here is the problem, we compete with other regional carriers for contracts from the majors, hence the need to be competetive, major airlines are competeing for pax, hence the fact they make more. I want more money, and we will get there as we decimate the competition, but first we have to get the majority of all the flying out there.

 

[outtahere]

Also, even though I'm not real thrilled about PBS, it's far from a concession for us. We got improved work rules, a pay raise, sorta, and the ability to verify the bid run solution. That's not a concession at all. If I had 10% more seniority, PBS might even be a good thing.

 

[Nevets]

You make it sound as if you are the greatest pilot group in all of the land, an by God I'll hold up the profession on my back alone!! Well, good luck with that. I'm also of the opinion that we should make more money, with more days off, flying bigger planes. That sounds great, but here is the problem, we compete with other regional carriers for contracts from the majors, hence the need to be competetive, major airlines are competeing for pax, hence the fact they make more. I want more money, and we will get there as we decimate the competition, but first we have to get the majority of all the flying out there.

It's got to start somewhere. Why not right now right here while we have the ability. You can also keep the larger aircraft. I rather see them go to mainline anyway. We have a great contract and were still able to get flying from cal and UAL. We need to stop believing management in that they can only compete of the backs of pilots. And even if that's the case, I rather just take what little I have rather than take concessions to get more 900s at $2/hr more and continue perpetuating the problem. E erveryone complains about those who bring down the profession but then don't have the courage to walk the talk. Now is our chance. Inc has $800 BILLION in the bank for petes sake!

 

[Nevets]

Also, even though I'm not real thrilled about PBS, it's far from a concession for us. We got improved work rules, a pay raise, sorta, and the ability to verify the bid run solution. That's not a concession at all. If I had 10% more seniority, PBS might even be a good thing.

JA told us PBS was equal to a 4% concession. I'm sure he was low balling it especially with our vacation rules. So unless you got 4% raise or probably more, you got a concession. Otherwise your argument about being more competitive would hold as much water as a sib.

 

[cybourg10]

It's got to start somewhere. Why not right now right here while we have the ability. You can also keep the larger aircraft. I rather see them go to mainline anyway. We have a great contract and were still able to get flying from cal and UAL. We need to stop believing management in that they can only compete of the backs of pilots. And even if that's the case, I rather just take what little I have rather than take concessions to get more 900s at $2/hr more and continue perpetuating the problem. E erveryone complains about those who bring down the profession but then don't have the courage to walk the talk. Now is our chance. Inc has $800 BILLION in the bank for petes sake!

Google does not even have $800 billion, I think you mean million and $800 million is not a lot in terms of historical cash per revenue for successful businesses.

 

[outtahere]

So let me get this straight, you want all of us to tow the line that you want, so we get more expensive, and the "big" airplanes go back to mainline? You're talkin' outta both sides of you're mouth. Either you want a stable and profitable carrier for the long term, or ya don't. Which is it? I want all the goodies too, but we can't expect to grab em all at once. Let's get the merger done, and then we can start picking pockets. I know what you're saying, and I'm with ya, but if there is anything I've learned from watching Inc. work, it's that they are gonna do the smart thing. If this deal gets to complicated and expensive, they WILL walk away, and it probably won't leave you guys in a good place. Timing is everything in this industry, and now isn't the time to draw a line in the sand over a system that none of us have seen work yet. We have PBS at asa, nothing can be done about that now, and if it truly sucks, then we can fix it. First we have to see if it's actually broke.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Nevets, with all due respect, you are starting to cross a line with the ASA pilots. We fight amongst ourselves sometimes, but all in all, we are a pretty tight group that generally likes Skywest Inc., Brad, Jerry and the rest of the gang.

We are buying you and we want this to work. However don't pretend that you understand our situation and do not speak for us. If you feel the need to fight Jerry, knock yourself out.

I would recommend however that you don't tick off both Jerry and the ASA pilots. You may find yourself without any friends.

Let's quit this fighting and find a way to make this work.

AVoiceofReason

 

[79%N1]

I guess most ASA pilots do think alike.........sensibly!

 

[JoeMerchant]

It's got to start somewhere. Why not right now right here while we have the ability.

Why didn't it start when you voted in concessions that even you admit didn't make a difference. How exactly do we have the ability in your opinion.

You can also keep the larger aircraft. I rather see them go to mainline anyway.

Here is a huge difference between many on your list and many of the senior ASA pilots. We have a much higher percentage of "lifers" as does Skywest. Those of us who are "lifers" won't agree with you here. We already consider ASA a career job, and would like it to grow in size. It is clear by looking at your list, that most took the flowthrough....Not saying that going on is wrong...For many it is the right thing to do IF the opportunity presents itself. However for many at the top at ASA, moving on doesn't make sense. You are going to have understand that if we are going to work together.

E erveryone complains about those who bring down the profession but then don't have the courage to walk the talk. Now is our chance. Inc has $800 BILLION in the bank for petes sake!

I complain about people like you who take unnecessary concessions, then lecture a group who hasn't taken concessions about "bringing down the profession".

I'm glad my parent corporation has 800 MILLION in the bank so that it can be the buyer rather than the buyee....If XJET had been as good a corporation as Skywest Inc. is, we probably wouldn't be debating this...Something to think about.

 

[Nevets]

So let me get this straight, you want all of us to tow the line that you want, so we get more expensive, and the "big" airplanes go back to mainline? You're talkin' outta both sides of you're mouth. Either you want a stable and profitable carrier for the long term, or ya don't. Which is it? I want all the goodies too, but we can't expect to grab em all at once. Let's get the merger done, and then we can start picking pockets. I know what you're saying, and I'm with ya, but if there is anything I've learned from watching Inc. work, it's that they are gonna do the smart thing. If this deal gets to complicated and expensive, they WILL walk away, and it probably won't leave you guys in a good place. Timing is everything in this industry, and now isn't the time to draw a line in the sand over a system that none of us have seen work yet. We have PBS at asa, nothing can be done about that now, and if it truly sucks, then we can fix it. First we have to see if it's actually broke.

What I want is to be treated with dignity and respect. What that means is honoring our contract, not taking anymore concessions, getting an equitable contract and one list. Otherwise, I personally wouldn't mind Inc calling it all off. We didn't ask for this, we have one of the lowest cams, we are already taking a $10M per year concession, Inc will save $70M and have positive cash flows of $35M. As for my thoughts on big RJs, well those are just my hopes.

 

[Nevets]

Nevets, with all due respect, you are starting to cross a line with the ASA pilots. We fight amongst ourselves sometimes, but all in all, we are a pretty tight group that generally likes Skywest Inc., Brad, Jerry and the rest of the gang.

We are buying you and we want this to work. However don't pretend that you understand our situation and do not speak for us. If you feel the need to fight Jerry, knock yourself out.

I would recommend however that you don't tick off both Jerry and the ASA pilots. You may find yourself without any friends.

Let's quit this fighting and find a way to make this work.

AVoiceofReason

I don't speak for anyone other than myself. We didn't pick this fight with JA. He is doing it to himself. None of this would be an issue if he just respected our contract. This is why I don't like him. He tried it two years ago and whipsawed us and he is trying to do it again. I've made it clear I would prefer the deal fall thru.

 

[sweptback]

JA told us PBS was equal to a 4% concession. I'm sure he was low balling it especially with our vacation rules. So unless you got 4% raise or probably more, you got a concession. Otherwise your argument about being more competitive would hold as much water as a sib.

I don't know what was said in your MEC meeting, but PBS isn't necessarily a concession. It's a 4% savings to the company, that much I agree. But what if a pilot group was able to shape the PBS language into a way that benefited them while still saving the company money? And what if that same pilot group shared in half of the savings to the company resulting in increased pay, benefits, and work rules? Is that still a concession?