ASA/expressjet & skywest

[79%N1]

Ford & Harrison

Pretty lame comeback or attempt at mocking my post. What I am is someone who understands how this game is played in 2010, and what types of contractual provisions are unsustainable at these types of companies! Management could agree to this type of thing, however that company will probably not be around long after their next contract expires. Like I said, do I want to be paid 75 hrs to fly 40 three times per year? OF COURSE I DO! That does not mean I think is is a viable economical way for my company to do business! I mean really, if I owned a company, I would never want to pay that kind of pay to employees.

Now, can we address the more important issues.......

 

[cybourg10]

I get all that, and I'm all for it! However, in an age of competition for all Regional flying - especially in the DCI network - how long can a company sustain that type of cost? In a time where all flying continually goes to bid, and with cheaper companies out there ready to underbid you each time and take your flying, these types of contractual benefits may be unsustainable. ASA/XJ will be a very senior company. Companies like Pinnacle, Trans States, Mesa, etc will be ready and able to jump in and take our former business. ASA has to remain competitive, or lose out ultimately. So, if it is unsustainable to pay 4300 pilots 75 hours to fly 40 3-4 times per year, then so be it. That's 12,900 vacation periods per year. At a difference of 35 hours between that 40 hours flown and 75 hours pay you guys speak of is 451,500 hours of pay per year the company would pay out for hours of work not done. If the average pay rate for all pilots is $50/hr, that amount to $22,575,000 PER YEAR! I hardly think that is a reasonable thing to ask management to endure. Do I want to get it? ABSOLUTELY! Do I think a Regional Airline can endure that type of cost? No way.

ExpressJet has a much lower CASM than ASA even with our vacation rules so I wouldn't put too much stock in this. Just based on XJT's experience this year managment seems much more concerned with sick calls rather than our vacation rules. Keep us happy and don't over work your employees and we can have the cheapest crew costs even with an industry leading contract.

 

[Nevets]

I get all that, and I'm all for it! However, in an age of competition for all Regional flying - especially in the DCI network - how long can a company sustain that type of cost? In a time where all flying continually goes to bid, and with cheaper companies out there ready to underbid you each time and take your flying, these types of contractual benefits may be unsustainable. ASA/XJ will be a very senior company. Companies like Pinnacle, Trans States, Mesa, etc will be ready and able to jump in and take our former business. ASA has to remain competitive, or lose out ultimately. So, if it is unsustainable to pay 4300 pilots 75 hours to fly 40 3-4 times per year, then so be it. That's 12,900 vacation periods per year. At a difference of 35 hours between that 40 hours flown and 75 hours pay you guys speak of is 451,500 hours of pay per year the company would pay out for hours of work not done. If the average pay rate for all pilots is $50/hr, that amount to $22,575,000 PER YEAR! I hardly think that is a reasonable thing to ask management to endure. Do I want to get it? ABSOLUTELY! Do I think a Regional Airline can endure that type of cost? No way.

Ok, so let's all take 16% paycuts then in order to remain cost competitive. Wow, some of you guys have been hanging around Inc too long. Pilots at XJT have already taken concessions and won't do another round. PBS would be a huge concession to us. Anyways, 2/3 of that $22M is already in the casm equation in which XJT has one of the lowest. Don't be fooled into thinking that being cost competitive means that it must come from pilots already meager wages.

 

[Nevets]

Well so after vacation credits and whatnot, an ASA pilot would get about 65 hours (if they choose to work the least) and an XJT pilot would get 75. That's a big deal, but it's not 40 vs. 75 like you make it seem. But, as I said earlier, with PBS, nobody gets paid less than guarantee. And with our system, it is possible to extend your vacation to get 20+ days off in a month.

The other thing that you're overlooking is that not everybody wants to work as little as possible during a vacation month. There are plenty of people who want to max out their credit that month, and I've heard of guys hitting 120+ in a vacation month.

There are many pilots here with block times in the mid 60s and credit in the 90s. If anything, your vacation rules, while good, probably benefit the average pilot less than our min day (soon to be 3.86). On a given month, I probably hit the min day about once per four day trip. Over the course of the year, that would definitely pay me more than vacation workrules.

What I'm saying that at XJT on a vacation month you could fly 40 hours and get paid at least 75. I don't know how many hours you would fly to get paid 65 at Asa but whatever the difference between what you fly and what you get paid is the more meaningful number. The more you get paid for the least that you fly increases your effective pay rate and that is the purest metric to measure your contracts quality becuase it takes not only pay into account but also some qol.

And I'm not overlooking anything. At XJT if you want to work on vacation you can. But it gets added to guarantee. The 35 hours of pay without flying remains the same. Typically you can credit at least 115 hours but only fly 75.

As for minimum day pay, it wouldn't make much of a difference here. Our trips average about 5 hours per day and our trips are built with min day pay of 3.75.

 

[Nevets]

Exactly Swept. I keep hearing from XJ pilots I know how they can't or won't (not sure they have a choice) go for this because of one provision like PBS or vacation pay. They all refuse to look at the whole picture. In fact, how viable is their company going forward alone? Will their contracts get extended with United going forward, or are they too costly as is?

At any rate, the "we're not going to accept this or that" rhetoric needs to end, and we need to together find a solution that make the 'New' Atlantic Southeast viable going forward long-term!

When we had our vote for concessions, the pilots had to ask themselves if they wanted to give the company a chance to survive or risk it without pay cuts. Now after concessions many feel like we've done our part and will no longer perpetuate the proverbial race to the bottom. Obviously we bring a lot of value to Inc or others I this falls thru again. We have the lowest casm in the regional industry and Inc says they will save $70M and have cash flows of $30M. There is reason why XJT pilots should give up anything more.

 

[Nevets]

I was a firm no vote on PBS, and still am wholly against it for the time being. we will see in a few days where I stand on this issue. However, I personally think its foolish for the XJT guys to blow up a deal because of PBS, and Skywest pilots. We can do more together than alone, and honestly, XJT was in a downhill slide before this came about. Don't let arrogance ruin a chance at what could be a very good company to work for.

Remember Midwest?

I would feel better about that if we had one list. Otherwise I and many others don't want to be a part of this whipsaw and the erosion of our current contract rules, qol, and total compensation.

Me personally, I rather go at it independent. But if we provide this much vaue to skw then we would provide it as well for someone else. I rather merge with Mesa as one pilot group then to keep bringing the profession down.

 

[JoeMerchant]

When we had our vote for concessions, the pilots had to ask themselves if they wanted to give the company a chance to survive or risk it without pay cuts. Now after concessions many feel like we've done our part and will no longer perpetuate the proverbial race to the bottom. Obviously we bring a lot of value to Inc or others I this falls thru again. We have the lowest casm in the regional industry and Inc says they will save $70M and have cash flows of $30M. There is reason why XJT pilots should give up anything more.

Why did you guys vote for paycuts?

 

[Nevets]

Pretty lame comeback or attempt at mocking my post. What I am is someone who understands how this game is played in 2010, and what types of contractual provisions are unsustainable at these types of companies! Management could agree to this type of thing, however that company will probably not be around long after their next contract expires. Like I said, do I want to be paid 75 hrs to fly 40 three times per year? OF COURSE I DO! That does not mean I think is is a viable economical way for my company to do business! I mean really, if I owned a company, I would never want to pay that kind of pay to employees.

Now, can we address the more important issues.......

I hope your line of thinking is the minority at Asa.

 

[79%N1]

Do a lot of us want to work 40 hrs and get paid 75? Most definitely. Probably lots more like me. Do I think a company can afford that and still get contracts. No. Sorry if you do. But you are wrong. But, just like you I want to work as little as I have to for he most pay I can get, with the most time off.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I hope your line of thinking is the minority at Asa.

I would say his line of thinking is similar to the majority at ASA. Why did XJT take concessions?

For years I and others pushed for single lists and brand scope....It fell on deaf ears. Now we have to deal with the reality of this failure.

Ironically, the "evil" SKYW and RAH are doing what ALPA couldn't....reducing competition. Sometimes it wise to choose the ally that can actually deliver on what you want......