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ASA contract.....
- Thread starter Palerider957
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DrunkIrishman
Cocaine is a helluva drug
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Just a thought, but it may not be good policy to discuss these things in a public forum. Maybe they can be discussed in an ALPA forum where all the participants are pilots.
Even still, the write-ups to upset management probably shouldn't be discussed in the ALPA boards either since management reads them. Remember, Northwest Airlines got a court order to go into their flight attendents' computers and retrieve emails. Careful out there! Just two words for all ASA pilots, fly safe!
Even still, the write-ups to upset management probably shouldn't be discussed in the ALPA boards either since management reads them. Remember, Northwest Airlines got a court order to go into their flight attendents' computers and retrieve emails. Careful out there! Just two words for all ASA pilots, fly safe!
Palerider957
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I think part of the reason management is dragging their heels is they don't know what is going to happen up a DAL. DAL would love to convert those 25 200's into 700's, perhaps something even bigger. (Easy General, take a deep breath.)
I think GG knows what he wants to do, but he knows DALPA will never agree to the breadth and depth of cuts at mainline and growth at the regionals....this is no excuse, but I think it does factor in, BK may be the only solution to longterm survival at DAL.
DAL will NOT tolerate an ASA strike, they simply can't afford it....
Another serious consideration is the power and influence of DALPA (who also fears an ASA strike and the effect on DAL pilots) with ALPA natonal. They could refuse us our strike benefits and generally make life very difficult for us. This combined with the NMB who is not very sympathetic to regional pilots, especially those with the power and moxy to tank one of the biggest legacy carriers.
I agree that it will soon be time to follow the "letter of the law." Although this also impacts our quality of life negatively.
What is so frustrating is that we are not asking for that much, just a fair contract for a NATIONAL airline. I would accept significant QOL improvement in lieu of major pay increases (but not one penny less than CMR).
This struggle has just begun.
I think GG knows what he wants to do, but he knows DALPA will never agree to the breadth and depth of cuts at mainline and growth at the regionals....this is no excuse, but I think it does factor in, BK may be the only solution to longterm survival at DAL.
DAL will NOT tolerate an ASA strike, they simply can't afford it....
Another serious consideration is the power and influence of DALPA (who also fears an ASA strike and the effect on DAL pilots) with ALPA natonal. They could refuse us our strike benefits and generally make life very difficult for us. This combined with the NMB who is not very sympathetic to regional pilots, especially those with the power and moxy to tank one of the biggest legacy carriers.
I agree that it will soon be time to follow the "letter of the law." Although this also impacts our quality of life negatively.
What is so frustrating is that we are not asking for that much, just a fair contract for a NATIONAL airline. I would accept significant QOL improvement in lieu of major pay increases (but not one penny less than CMR).
This struggle has just begun.
General Lee
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palerider,
I have taken a deep breath, and I also wonder where DAL will put some of those returning furloughs? I think Chap 11 will be avoided (even Duane Worthe just stated in an article that he thinks we will come to an agreement---just after looking at the new "plan")---but Dalpa is fighting for the return of the furloughs---and they may go to any NEW CR7s. You guys may get your raise or keep your current pay (I don't know)---but we have to put these returning pilots somewhere---and I don't know if we can get new 100 seaters fast enough.....You guys have expanded while we were contracting---and now it will flip flop. Just something to think about......
Bye Bye--General Lee
I have taken a deep breath, and I also wonder where DAL will put some of those returning furloughs? I think Chap 11 will be avoided (even Duane Worthe just stated in an article that he thinks we will come to an agreement---just after looking at the new "plan")---but Dalpa is fighting for the return of the furloughs---and they may go to any NEW CR7s. You guys may get your raise or keep your current pay (I don't know)---but we have to put these returning pilots somewhere---and I don't know if we can get new 100 seaters fast enough.....You guys have expanded while we were contracting---and now it will flip flop. Just something to think about......
Bye Bye--General Lee
Palerider957
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General:
I hate to say it out loud, but I don't think your furloughees are high on the priority list for DALPA. When I was jumpseating to DEN a few weeks ago, I talked to the Captain about these issues. We had a pleasant and direct conversation.
When I asked him point blank how much political capital he would be willing to expend to help the furloughees--without blinking an eye said "not much--that's just the industry." I heard this attitude from more than one fellow at DAL. The senior guys will seek to secure their pensions and lump sums, while the middle guys will want job security.
This is not unique to DAL, the ASA pilot group would probably vote along demographic lines as well. So there is it, if you have more pilots with 15-20 years on, they will look for the quick gain (or self preservation) at pretty much any costs to junior guys---this is of course if they can get the bulk to vote for it. Some kind of a bone would have to be given to the middle seniority guys--enough to get 50.1 vote. I'd bet the bottom third of your seniority lists will be savaged with additional furloughs, pay cuts (possible b-scale), and degraded work rules.
I know you say you have a contract--and you do, but I'm willing to bet the top 50.1% is not willing to take a hit for the bottom 49.9%...history is replete with labor examples like this. I don't say this to be an as.shole, it's just my read on the situation.
As for the 700's, why would DAL put DALPA pilots in them?? They have absolutely no incentive to do this.
If I were a DAL furloughee, I'd do my best to stay current and try like he.ll to get to Airtran, JB, SW, Virgin USA.
I hate to say it out loud, but I don't think your furloughees are high on the priority list for DALPA. When I was jumpseating to DEN a few weeks ago, I talked to the Captain about these issues. We had a pleasant and direct conversation.
When I asked him point blank how much political capital he would be willing to expend to help the furloughees--without blinking an eye said "not much--that's just the industry." I heard this attitude from more than one fellow at DAL. The senior guys will seek to secure their pensions and lump sums, while the middle guys will want job security.
This is not unique to DAL, the ASA pilot group would probably vote along demographic lines as well. So there is it, if you have more pilots with 15-20 years on, they will look for the quick gain (or self preservation) at pretty much any costs to junior guys---this is of course if they can get the bulk to vote for it. Some kind of a bone would have to be given to the middle seniority guys--enough to get 50.1 vote. I'd bet the bottom third of your seniority lists will be savaged with additional furloughs, pay cuts (possible b-scale), and degraded work rules.
I know you say you have a contract--and you do, but I'm willing to bet the top 50.1% is not willing to take a hit for the bottom 49.9%...history is replete with labor examples like this. I don't say this to be an as.shole, it's just my read on the situation.
As for the 700's, why would DAL put DALPA pilots in them?? They have absolutely no incentive to do this.
If I were a DAL furloughee, I'd do my best to stay current and try like he.ll to get to Airtran, JB, SW, Virgin USA.
General Lee
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- 20,442
palerider,
I know that sounds like the norm---but that is not what is happening. Dalpa has made an effort to ensure that the furloughs know that they will be taken care of--primarily because if they are not---there will be a large exodus from Dalpa when they come back. Most of the ex-Western pilots--mostly LA and SLC based, are NOT members of ALPA--primarily because they thought they were SCREWED way back when. Just think of more than 1000 current furloughs getting screwed, and the number above that who could get screwed if any more were to occur. I know there are some senior a$$holes that like to think that they deserve top pay and like to think that 9-11 never happened---but make sure you ask them "what they did during their own furlough?..." Likely it never happened. I have talked to many MEC members and they have said they are a "furlough friendly MEC"---because more than one member on the MEC was furloughed in '91---and they know how it feels. Also, even our MEC chair Malone stated that not one group would benefit over the others---so, that means the senior guys will not win and junior guys lose. (Malone was the C2K negotiator and wrote the No Furlough Clause and scope Clause---not good for you guys) If the senior guys tried to raise the cap to make up for lost pay--most of those middle seniority guys would get bumped down a couple aircraft seats--resulting in a double or triple pay cut. Not gonna happen. Most people like their time off and would rather stay on their equipment type and not have to go back to training. Only the very senior would stay on their equipment types if they raise the cap---and they are the minority, although very vocal.(just like at Comair and ASA) There may be some partial losses here and there, but not one clear winner--regardless of seniority. Most of those senior guys are bailing due to the low Gatt rate--or higher lump sum---and that is ending on June 1st. We may have 250-300 SENIOR Capts leaving then---and when a senior guy leaves--many move up. That is another reason the senior guys won't get it all. Most of them would NOT have moved up to their new equipment had the newly retired senior guys not left early (a lot left at 55 years old or even younger). They have moved up one or two equipment types---and their subsequent pay cut will not be as bad had the other guys not retired early and gave them the spots. Make sense? Some people thought Dalpa might screw over the 1060 by not accepting a recall---but that is NOT the case. Ask that same DL Capt you talked to now what he thinks? I bet he didn't see that coming---Dalpa is negotiating the recall rates NEXT WEEK. I bet that senior guy is "browning his shorts" now.
As far as the CR7s---I wonder what Delta will do with the recalls? They know they can't just not pay them for a long time and have them do nothing---so they will PROBABLY try to negotiate something with Dalpa---and look what ALPA National has been doing--like with USAir......Believe it or not--Grinstein does NOT want this thing to go Chap 11---he and his new team will lose control---and he doesn't want that. He will have to include these furloughs in his new plans---and the only NEW airplanes coming are 12 CR7s this year.......make your own conclusions---and I would love to see what that guy you talked to a few weeks ago thinks about the recalls.....That blind sided him---no doubt. You said it was a few weeks ago---and the Dalpa announcement was last week. But, you have a chance of being right---because we all don't know what really will happen. But, they are meeting soon (near future) to decide the recall rate---and that is for sure....(as of 6:57 pm Sunday ATL time anyways.....)
Bye Bye--General Lee
PS: Here is the actual message from Dalpa to the furloughs--be sure to copy it and give it to that DL Capt.....
Furlough Recall Update
April 30, 2004
Today, Delta informed ALPA that management agrees with the Association that the furlough recall trigger has been met, per the arbitrator's ruling. We will be meeting with management in the near future to discuss the recall.
I know that sounds like the norm---but that is not what is happening. Dalpa has made an effort to ensure that the furloughs know that they will be taken care of--primarily because if they are not---there will be a large exodus from Dalpa when they come back. Most of the ex-Western pilots--mostly LA and SLC based, are NOT members of ALPA--primarily because they thought they were SCREWED way back when. Just think of more than 1000 current furloughs getting screwed, and the number above that who could get screwed if any more were to occur. I know there are some senior a$$holes that like to think that they deserve top pay and like to think that 9-11 never happened---but make sure you ask them "what they did during their own furlough?..." Likely it never happened. I have talked to many MEC members and they have said they are a "furlough friendly MEC"---because more than one member on the MEC was furloughed in '91---and they know how it feels. Also, even our MEC chair Malone stated that not one group would benefit over the others---so, that means the senior guys will not win and junior guys lose. (Malone was the C2K negotiator and wrote the No Furlough Clause and scope Clause---not good for you guys) If the senior guys tried to raise the cap to make up for lost pay--most of those middle seniority guys would get bumped down a couple aircraft seats--resulting in a double or triple pay cut. Not gonna happen. Most people like their time off and would rather stay on their equipment type and not have to go back to training. Only the very senior would stay on their equipment types if they raise the cap---and they are the minority, although very vocal.(just like at Comair and ASA) There may be some partial losses here and there, but not one clear winner--regardless of seniority. Most of those senior guys are bailing due to the low Gatt rate--or higher lump sum---and that is ending on June 1st. We may have 250-300 SENIOR Capts leaving then---and when a senior guy leaves--many move up. That is another reason the senior guys won't get it all. Most of them would NOT have moved up to their new equipment had the newly retired senior guys not left early (a lot left at 55 years old or even younger). They have moved up one or two equipment types---and their subsequent pay cut will not be as bad had the other guys not retired early and gave them the spots. Make sense? Some people thought Dalpa might screw over the 1060 by not accepting a recall---but that is NOT the case. Ask that same DL Capt you talked to now what he thinks? I bet he didn't see that coming---Dalpa is negotiating the recall rates NEXT WEEK. I bet that senior guy is "browning his shorts" now.
As far as the CR7s---I wonder what Delta will do with the recalls? They know they can't just not pay them for a long time and have them do nothing---so they will PROBABLY try to negotiate something with Dalpa---and look what ALPA National has been doing--like with USAir......Believe it or not--Grinstein does NOT want this thing to go Chap 11---he and his new team will lose control---and he doesn't want that. He will have to include these furloughs in his new plans---and the only NEW airplanes coming are 12 CR7s this year.......make your own conclusions---and I would love to see what that guy you talked to a few weeks ago thinks about the recalls.....That blind sided him---no doubt. You said it was a few weeks ago---and the Dalpa announcement was last week. But, you have a chance of being right---because we all don't know what really will happen. But, they are meeting soon (near future) to decide the recall rate---and that is for sure....(as of 6:57 pm Sunday ATL time anyways.....)
Bye Bye--General Lee
PS: Here is the actual message from Dalpa to the furloughs--be sure to copy it and give it to that DL Capt.....
Furlough Recall Update
April 30, 2004
Today, Delta informed ALPA that management agrees with the Association that the furlough recall trigger has been met, per the arbitrator's ruling. We will be meeting with management in the near future to discuss the recall.
Last edited:
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
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MetroSheriff,
Sometimes the MEC needs a little help. Management needs to understand how important it is to treat us with respect. They are being very disrespectfull towards us. Sometimes you need to stand up and let them know that this is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. They need to negotiate in good faith or face the consequences. It's that simple.
Sometimes the MEC needs a little help. Management needs to understand how important it is to treat us with respect. They are being very disrespectfull towards us. Sometimes you need to stand up and let them know that this is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. They need to negotiate in good faith or face the consequences. It's that simple.
Metro,
If you choose to let someone else speak for yourself thats fine.
I speak for myself and I have had enough of the B.S.
ASACAP is correct. The pilots need to stop doing everybody elses job. The ramp may have improved but it is still a joke. Crew scheduling is still a joke. Our current contract is still a joke.
General Lee said:
General,
What is it that you think management will "negotiate with Dalpa"?
Do you think management will put the CR7 at the mainline"? If they don't do that, how do you think you will be able to put any of your pilots, furloughed or otherwise, into those aircraft?
Tell us what exactly you would like to see happen with the CR7's and where you would like to put your furlough recalls.
The most annoying sentence in the American workplace:
"That's not my job."
My passengers have paid for a product: safe and timely transportation from point A to point B. I will give that to them to the best of my ability, no matter what it takes. It's the way I was raised and the way I have served in every job I've ever had.
"That's not my job."
My passengers have paid for a product: safe and timely transportation from point A to point B. I will give that to them to the best of my ability, no matter what it takes. It's the way I was raised and the way I have served in every job I've ever had.
General Lee
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Surplus1,
Well, it seems like Dalpa and managment WILL discuss it, since they agreed to it last week. What will happen is a different story. But, the management people on your side---like Terry Erskine, Fred Reid, etc---are GONE---and a new bunch is taking over with new attitudes. We shall see what they think---but they probably want to get this train back on the right track--and that will have to be done with pilot pay cuts---which will have to be done with some negotiating---which seems to lead to Dalpa--which just stated that they were ready to negotiate a recall rate. I don't think they can go back on that now---since it was released to the public. Also, I bet there are some furloughed pilots that would take your rates to fly again--until they can fly a larger plane at mainline. You just have to connect the dots here. You guys have expanded wildly over the last few years---and now some of our guys are coming back. Lacking orders for new aircraft right now at mainline---only leaves one place to put these unfortunate pilots. Maybe we will order new 100 seaters after our pay cuts---but until then I can only see them flying new CR7s. Come up with a better answer and I will listen.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Well, it seems like Dalpa and managment WILL discuss it, since they agreed to it last week. What will happen is a different story. But, the management people on your side---like Terry Erskine, Fred Reid, etc---are GONE---and a new bunch is taking over with new attitudes. We shall see what they think---but they probably want to get this train back on the right track--and that will have to be done with pilot pay cuts---which will have to be done with some negotiating---which seems to lead to Dalpa--which just stated that they were ready to negotiate a recall rate. I don't think they can go back on that now---since it was released to the public. Also, I bet there are some furloughed pilots that would take your rates to fly again--until they can fly a larger plane at mainline. You just have to connect the dots here. You guys have expanded wildly over the last few years---and now some of our guys are coming back. Lacking orders for new aircraft right now at mainline---only leaves one place to put these unfortunate pilots. Maybe we will order new 100 seaters after our pay cuts---but until then I can only see them flying new CR7s. Come up with a better answer and I will listen.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee said:Surplus1,
Also, I bet there are some furloughed pilots that would take your rates to fly again--until they can fly a larger plane at mainline. You just have to connect the dots here. You guys have expanded wildly over the last few years---and now some of our guys are coming back. Lacking orders for new aircraft right now at mainline---only leaves one place to put these unfortunate pilots. Maybe we will order new 100 seaters after our pay cuts---but until then I can only see them flying new CR7s. Come up with a better answer and I will listen.
Bye Bye--General Lee
What's to stop DL from just lettting them sit there and collect a paycheck? Some of the guys from FMII are doing just that....
When DALPA and DL mgmt finally sit down for concessions talk, it'll just be more ammo for DL mgmt. Mgmt will say you forced us tok take pilots we don't need....now it's time to pay up.
It's funny that the CR7's weren't good enough for DL mainline a few years ago...but now all of the sudden mainline wants them (or at least the General does). Once again, the General wants other employee groups to pay for his union's mistakes.
regionalcap
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General Lee said:Surplus1,
Well, it seems like Dalpa and managment WILL discuss it, since they agreed to it last week. What will happen is a different story. But, the management people on your side---like Terry Erskine, Fred Reid, etc---are GONE---and a new bunch is taking over with new attitudes. We shall see what they think---but they probably want to get this train back on the right track--and that will have to be done with pilot pay cuts---which will have to be done with some negotiating---which seems to lead to Dalpa--which just stated that they were ready to negotiate a recall rate. I don't think they can go back on that now---since it was released to the public. Also, I bet there are some furloughed pilots that would take your rates to fly again--until they can fly a larger plane at mainline. You just have to connect the dots here. You guys have expanded wildly over the last few years---and now some of our guys are coming back. Lacking orders for new aircraft right now at mainline---only leaves one place to put these unfortunate pilots. Maybe we will order new 100 seaters after our pay cuts---but until then I can only see them flying new CR7s. Come up with a better answer and I will listen.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I hope you guys do get 70's, just don't lower the bar.
FL000 & regionalcap,
Good lord. Go clean the aircraft bathroom or something, that's not your job either. Or better yet, next time you see management, pull down your pants and bend over. I mean why not, you're already doing that anyway.
I guess if you get treated like a bitch long enough, you start to believe it.
Good lord. Go clean the aircraft bathroom or something, that's not your job either. Or better yet, next time you see management, pull down your pants and bend over. I mean why not, you're already doing that anyway.
I guess if you get treated like a bitch long enough, you start to believe it.
General Lee
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Medflyer,
Ok, here we go again. First of all, I never said we were "above" 70 seaters here at Delta. In fact, we should have gotten them in the first place. Secondly, all or most of the FMII guys were just given their training dates this morning---most for June 17th on the 737. There may be a hand full still not trained after that, but you get the picture. Now, you still haven't given a good idea on what to do with the extras that come in----besides telling them to sit at home and receive pay. Some might like that, but they probably are ready to get back into flying. I doubt Grinstein wants to pay them to stay home, so the next avenue is to find them seats to fly---and instead of hiring new ASA/Comair people---why not give them other seats. I bet Dalpa is looking into it, and if you look at ALPA National and their USAir policies---you might not like their way of doing things. Do I know what will ultimately happen? Nope. But, Grinstein wants pay cuts and now that Dalpa has stated in public that they intend to persue recall schedules for the furloughs---that will be a part of the eventual concession plan, probably.
Do I want you guys to "pay" for our union's mistakes? No, but you need to realize something here. You guys have expanded when we contracted. That is a fact. Now some of our guys get to come back, and there aren't as many mainline planes due to Delta parking the 727s, L1011s, etc.... Your RJs have expanded to California and JFK from DFW----and a lot of our people sat and picked up unemloyment. You need to get off your high horse and accept the fact that these unfortunate pilots are finally coming back to something they love too. I don't know what they will fly--but it might be 70 seat RJs---and I don't think Grinstein would care much if they did. He just wants a deal. I am sorry if that ruins some of your plans---many of our pilots have had a lot of plans ruined also in the last 3 years.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Ok, here we go again. First of all, I never said we were "above" 70 seaters here at Delta. In fact, we should have gotten them in the first place. Secondly, all or most of the FMII guys were just given their training dates this morning---most for June 17th on the 737. There may be a hand full still not trained after that, but you get the picture. Now, you still haven't given a good idea on what to do with the extras that come in----besides telling them to sit at home and receive pay. Some might like that, but they probably are ready to get back into flying. I doubt Grinstein wants to pay them to stay home, so the next avenue is to find them seats to fly---and instead of hiring new ASA/Comair people---why not give them other seats. I bet Dalpa is looking into it, and if you look at ALPA National and their USAir policies---you might not like their way of doing things. Do I know what will ultimately happen? Nope. But, Grinstein wants pay cuts and now that Dalpa has stated in public that they intend to persue recall schedules for the furloughs---that will be a part of the eventual concession plan, probably.
Do I want you guys to "pay" for our union's mistakes? No, but you need to realize something here. You guys have expanded when we contracted. That is a fact. Now some of our guys get to come back, and there aren't as many mainline planes due to Delta parking the 727s, L1011s, etc.... Your RJs have expanded to California and JFK from DFW----and a lot of our people sat and picked up unemloyment. You need to get off your high horse and accept the fact that these unfortunate pilots are finally coming back to something they love too. I don't know what they will fly--but it might be 70 seat RJs---and I don't think Grinstein would care much if they did. He just wants a deal. I am sorry if that ruins some of your plans---many of our pilots have had a lot of plans ruined also in the last 3 years.
Bye Bye--General Lee
letthebigdogeat
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