ASA/CMR merger?

[Palerider957]

What's the concensus out there? Will we merge lists? At what cost? What will be the ramifications?

 

[FL000]

Why don't we get together and flaunt the duplicate administrations, and resultant waste of millions, to the shareholders to see if they'll rock the boat? The Department of Redundancy Department at DCI is in top gear.

 

[Heavy Set]

I doubt it.

While it makes sense from a cost-cutting/efficiency standpoint, I doubt Leo would want to give up negotiating leverage. He can still threaten Comair with increased ASA or CHQ or Skywest expansion and vice versa. It is surprising given Comair's strong presence in ATL - you'd think they were the same company at times... It would be great for the ASA/CMR pilots with more leverage...

 

[sleepy]

Does operational integration exist between ASA and Comair. Do we operate similar equipment? If yes, then why wait for Leo to merg us. Why give concessions to do it. Why not just take it to the NMB and let them decide.

 

[Palerider957]

Sleepy,

Good point. But, I'm not sure how much authority the NMB has with regard to seniority lists, bidding domiciles, equipment, etc.. I'm not saying they can't do it, I just don't know how far they can go is DAL doesn't want it to happen.

I think merging CMR/ASA, negotiating a fair contract, and keeping DCI flying under one roof would be great.......***sigh**that's why it will probably stay a fantasy...

 

[601Pilot]

I believe it will happen, with some help from
the mainline pilots. I'm just not sure on the
timeline. I would like to see it happen so
we (ASA/CMR) would have more strength (numbers).
It sure would save DAL lots of money. I don't think I can count high enough to number all of
our VPs and managers. As you can tell from our
stellar on-time and baggage handling numbers,
they are doing a superb job! (Insert sarcastic
remark here!)

601Pilot

 

[Tim47SIP]

Paledood

Good point. But, I'm not sure how much authority the NMB has with regard to seniority lists, bidding domiciles, equipment, etc.. I'm not saying they can't do it, I just don't know how far they can go is DAL doesn't want it to happen.

Didn't Eagle merge all of its carriers into one? The NMB approved that one, so why wouldnt they approve ASA/Comair? The only problem I have with the merger is some of the Comair atitudes which are sometimes quite funny when listening to them over the ops freq's in ATL. Although, I'm sure for the most part that they are all a bunch of great guys/gals.

 

[asarjfo]

Although it would save on overhead to merge the two companies, they are worth more seperate. Just look at what Continental did with Express jet when they needed to raise some cash! It is just my opinion, but I think the two are worth more to DAL while they are seperate. They can choose to float an IPO for one or both and probably raise more cash than if we combined.

As far as the pilots are concerned, merging lists would not give us much more leverage, unless we secured ALL DCI flying. What would keep DAL from farming out flying to the lowest bidder while we stay the same size. No more jobs/airplanes/upgrades......

Just my $.02

 

[bailout]

I cant see this happening. More like No Way. Both companies are too big and way too many complicated issues. Delta wouldnt gain that much, but would lose in terms of having one big powerful carrier that might strike and completely shut down the feeding of the hubs, versus one of them striking and only interupting one hub. I dont know what the seniority lists at Comair are like, but just think, would it be possible for a Comair Capt to get displaced to ATL as an ATR F/O based on the one list theory? Or anything similiar like that.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Does operational integration exist between ASA and Comair. Do we operate similar equipment? If yes, then why wait for Leo to merg us. Why give concessions to do it. Why not just take it to the NMB and let them decide.

Sports fans - he nailed it.

 

[Palerider957]

Take it to the NMB---this will probably only take 8-10 years.

Fins, what's you read on current contract talks? The MEC (as I'm sure you know) called many asking about their thoughts on a merger, what's the latest?

 

[jegermeister]

I wish the wo's had merged at USAir. It's something we had talked about also, but I think the odds are that Delta will travel the same road USAir did. That is they will keep ASA and Comair seperate and pit us against the contract carriers.

Here's an idea..... Get they mainline guys to merge the three of us. Give us 100 seaters. Their furloughed guys can fly them until they go back to mainline A/C. We're given flow down protection until that happens and all new hires go below us.

1. We get the mainline jobs many of us would like and larger A/C.
2. Mainline guys get their furloughed people back to work, job protcection, and power over regional A/C.
3. The company gets to streamline wo management and gets Connection to fly 100 seat airplanes to compete with SW JB AirTran.

Just an idea.

 

[General Lee]

Sure, we could give you the 100 seaters if we got bigger aircraft for the current 1060 furloughs. But, if problems came back and we needed to furlough again---then the bottom guys would have to go back to the 100 seater. If you could agree to that, then maybe it would work.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FL000]

Sure, we could give you the 100 seaters if we got bigger aircraft for the current 1060 furloughs. But, if problems came back and we needed to furlough again---then the bottom guys would have to go back to the 100 seater. If you could agree to that, then maybe it would work.

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,
I was thinking that very thing before I even read your post.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Elegant solution -- sounds fair to me. Uh oh, have we killed this thread by all agreeing on something for a change?

 

[asarjfo]

Where do I sign?!?!

 

[Palerider957]

Yeah, I'd sign that sucker too!

 

[DDpaysoff]

Sure, we could give you the 100 seaters if we got bigger aircraft for the current 1060 furloughs. But, if problems came back and we needed to furlough again---then the bottom guys would have to go back to the 100 seater. If you could agree to that, then maybe it would work.

Bye Bye--General Lee

If you furloughed again, are you talking about people that are on you seniority list now or people who may be on your list in the future? How is it decided whether they go to ASA or CMR? I have said all along the only solution to all of our problems will come if all three of us sit down at the table together. What is funny about this whole thing is ASA and CMR would have no say in this. What's crazy is that might not be a bad thing.

 

[General Lee]

I am not a negotiator, OBVIOUSLY, but as long as the current 1060 were absorbed into the mainline fleet again, and there were 100 seaters that DCI pilots could bid up to somehow---then why not? And, why couldn't everyone---in seniority order---move down to it in another furlough situation. Sounds good to me---but Delta would have to sign off on it---and Dalpa would also have to agree on this situation. My concern mostly is returning the furloughs to their planes, and then bringing more people on behind me. I think eventually we will have a large INTL portion, a Song portion with many 757s, a domestic feed consisting of 737-800s, 764's, and 100 seaters, and then RJs. If a DCI guy could bid up and hold any of those--good for him. But, I am not in charge of any of these things.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Palerider957]

General:

One potential sticking point, it you are talking about the ability to "flow up," or "flow down," then you will have to give the ASA/CMR pilots a DAL seniority number. This pilot group won't accept the kind of bi.tch slap AMR gave Eagle.

I know giving all of us a number could meet resistance by DALPA, but perhaps there is some middle ground. Both pilot groups would some kind of protection in the even of another economic down turn.

 

[Sinca3]

13 yrs to see mainline!

Ok now these are just generalizations using non scientific numbers. Just me playing with these numbers for me to get an idea on a staple with all future new hires of DAL going to the bottom of the combined (DAL/ASA/Comair) seniority list.
Disclaimer out of the way....
If there was a staple of a combined ASA/Comair list (3200 pilots)to DALPAs list and there were let's say 20mnth/240yr retirements from the seniority list, the bottom of the list wouldn't see a mainline a/c for 13 years! This doen't even include the 1060 guys on the street thatg would have to be back first!! Now I now that there are more variables to this scenario, like more equipment in the fleet but like I said it is just a little food for thought.
I am in no means against or for a staple at this time just thinking out loud here.
Cheers

 

[rjcap]

My concern mostly is returning the furloughs to their planes, and then bringing more people on behind me

Food for thought.

The combined hiring at ASA/Comair next year will be about 40 per month. Add to that all the flying that is outsourced - Skywest, ACA, CHQ - and you pretty much have all your furloughees back at work within a year. Many of them will be flying CRJ's until they are absorbed back into mainline but who cares.

One question.

If seniority lists are stapled what would be the effective date ????

ASA was purchased in May 1999 and Comair approximately 1 year later.

How many Delta pilots were hired after those above dates ???

 

[DDpaysoff]

Food for thought.



One question.

If seniority lists are stapled what would be the effective date ????

Are you serious with that question? It sounds like you could care less about the comair pilot group as a whole and only what is in it for you. That won't fly, I don't care how long you have been here.

Comair FO

 

[General Lee]

The way I would see it, and remember I have NO say in this matter, is that Comair and ASA would be merged date of hire, and then stapled onto the Delta list---if it were ever to occur. Hopefully someday we would expand again, and the 1060 would come back and the others would bid up to other aircraft. Remember--from 1996 to 1999 we hired close to 3000 or so pilots onto mainline--and they all went to 737 or larger jets. Who knows what will happen in the near future...?


This is all speculation, with no insight from anyone at Dalpa--and it only expresses MY view.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[601Pilot]

Re: 13 yrs to see mainline!

Ok now these are just generalizations using non scientific numbers. Just me playing with these numbers for me to get an idea on a staple with all future new hires of DAL going to the bottom of the combined (DAL/ASA/Comair) seniority list.
Disclaimer out of the way....
If there was a staple of a combined ASA/Comair list (3200 pilots)to DALPAs list and there were let's say 20mnth/240yr retirements from the seniority list, the bottom of the list wouldn't see a mainline a/c for 13 years! This doen't even include the 1060 guys on the street thatg would have to be back first!! Now I now that there are more variables to this scenario, like more equipment in the fleet but like I said it is just a little food for thought.
I am in no means against or for a staple at this time just thinking out loud here.
Cheers

Well, you have to remember that some of your senior Captains
at ASA and CMR would not move to a bigger a/c and back to
the right seat. You would actually see more movement than
just retirements.

 

[FLB717]

The Paramedics just used a defibulator to revive me, and I reread the posts and was..ahhhg....ZAP.....ZAP....ok Im back again. Im sooo happy that the light has been seen and most agree its not a train. Keep the faith..one list

 

[General Lee]

FLB717,

As long as it is a staple, I don't think any Delta pilot would mind at all. The ASA/Comair guys would have to probably combine date of hire---which would be fair for them. I just don't think Delta would like that, but maybe Dalpa will force it---who knows?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[601Pilot]

Merger

FLB717,

As long as it is a staple, I don't think any Delta pilot would mind at all. The ASA/Comair guys would have to probably combine date of hire---which would be fair for them. I just don't think Delta would like that, but maybe Dalpa will force it---who knows?

Bye Bye--General Lee

I would be happy with a combined ASA/CMR list (DOH) and then
a staple to the Delta list. Some of the senior guys that don't
plan on moving over to DAL, would probably want some kind of
fence protection for their seat but I assume we could work something out.
I think the big sticking point with most DAL
pilots is that new hires at DAL would have to go to the bottom
of the combined list and possibly into an RJ instead of an MD88
or 737.

 

[General Lee]

601pilot,

I think you are correct, but with the last huge furlough and the growth of the RJs----most military new hires would go to the RJs anyways. Most of those guys have never seen an RJ cockpit and then compared it to an older 737-200. I think that most associate RJs with lower pay. If things started to flow again like they did in '96, people would find themselves in a 50 seat RJ or ATR for a year or two to start, then a 70 seater for 1 year, followed by the 100 seater right seat or 50 seat left seat, and then onto a larger mainline aircraft. 4 or 5 years in an RJ to start, and then onto larger equipment. That is what I would like to see, and most military pilots now watching this current job market probably wouldn't mind. They would have to go to a 100 seater initially if they went to Jetblue in a couple years too. IF they want to avoid the RJs---I would tell them to go to Southwest or Airtran---but then their chances of eventually flying INTL would be decreased. (for now anyways) Some people don't care about having that choice--and that is fine.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[601Pilot]

re: Merger

General,

I hope that's the case especially with the DAL MEC. Prelim
awards today showed 70 seat Captain at about 2 1/2 years
here at ASA. I doubt that will hold up on the final, but probably
around 3 1/2 years. If times were good, then it would be alot
lower.

I just don't know what ASA and CMR have to offer to the DAL
group to move along the process.