ASA April Schedules

[Medeco]

Another way to look at it.

Having pre assigned credits like vacation or AQP, before you ever start the bidding process helps this person reach the required credit window.

Additionally, just like straight line bidding, if you are senior enough to hold better trips you are going to reach the required credit window easier than those who are junior to you.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The bidder can determine specific days he wants off, however the number of days off really boils down to the credit hours of the trips the bidder is awarded. When you bid, you select your "personal credit threshold". When this credit number is reached, your line is complete. In theory, if you select 75 hours as a PTC and are awarded a dayline that is worth 75 hours, then you are now working one day that month and have the rest of that month off. Obviously, 75 hour credit trips do not exist, but that is how I would explain it to a child.

More realistically, if you are awarded 4 4-days worth 18.75 hours each with a PTC of 75, you will have 14 days off in a 30 day month.

The problem we are having is determining whether PBS is causing the company to build crappy pairings or if it is mere coincidence. Me? I'm torn. I've gotten what I've wanted 3 months in a row but I'm unhappy with the pairings and am working much more in March than in February to make the same.

My question to you is, why do you ask? You've taken your stance on the pbs issue already and only seem quasi-interested for the purpose of pimping your own agenda.

ALPA built the pairings for April.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Ack, double posted....

 

[Nevets]

The bidder can determine specific days he wants off, however the number of days off really boils down to the credit hours of the trips the bidder is awarded. When you bid, you select your "personal credit threshold". When this credit number is reached, your line is complete. In theory, if you select 75 hours as a PTC and are awarded a dayline that is worth 75 hours, then you are now working one day that month and have the rest of that month off. Obviously, 75 hour credit trips do not exist, but that is how I would explain it to a child.

More realistically, if you are awarded 4 4-days worth 18.75 hours each with a PTC of 75, you will have 14 days off in a 30 day month.

The problem we are having is determining whether PBS is causing the company to build crappy pairings or if it is mere coincidence. Me? I'm torn. I've gotten what I've wanted 3 months in a row but I'm unhappy with the pairings and am working much more in March than in February to make the same.

My question to you is, why do you ask? You've taken your stance on the pbs issue already and only seem quasi-interested for the purpose of pimping your own agenda.

Thanks for explaining it to me like a child. That's what I needed. That's kind of how I figured it worked but I guess I needed someone to explain it to me again. Isn't there a minimum and a maximum PTC? Wouldnt that also determine how many days off you get or don't get?

I'll be honest. I'm not a fan of your PBS. I can see PBS working in a way that keeps everything we have now. Which I think would be a minimum requirement for XJT pilots in general because I don't think many of us want to take another concession. So I'm trying to find out the "weaknesses" for lack of a better word, in order to know what I would need to consider PBS.

Another way to look at it.

Having pre assigned credits like vacation or AQP, before you ever start the bidding process helps this person reach the required credit window.

Additionally, just like straight line bidding, if you are senior enough to hold better trips you are going to reach the required credit window easier than those who are junior to you.

Ya thanks for that. I understood that part of it. Personally, I feel that your credits for these things are too low. By the way, in our line bidding system, even though you are not senior enough to get all the good trips, because of transition, vacation, training, FAR, and contractual conflicts, some of those trips are dropped into the ILIW for others to trade for. Or you can drop one of these trips into the ILIW for someone else to pick up or trade for. That is part of the beauty of our system in that even the junior guys have a chance at these better trips or picking up or dropping or changing their days off if something comes up after the lines are awarded or working over vacation if you suddenly need more money, etc. It's intimately flexible throughout the whole month.

 

[screamingpax]

All of our trips in line bidding before we got PBS were dropped into an open time as well if they conflicted with something like vacation, training, etc. Giving you those days off. I still like and have done better with our PBS. I am about 65 percent back on my seat and I have gotten everything I have asked for including, 16 days off and 85 hours of pay. I never go into open time anymore because the trips I am awarded would be the ones I am searching for in open time. Like I said, two thirds of the way back!!

 

[cfi on the fly]

Ya thanks for that. I understood that part of it. Personally, I feel that your credits for these things are too low. By the way, in our line bidding system, even though you are not senior enough to get all the good trips, because of transition, vacation, training, FAR, and contractual conflicts, some of those trips are dropped into the ILIW for others to trade for. Or you can drop one of these trips into the ILIW for someone else to pick up or trade for. That is part of the beauty of our system in that even the junior guys have a chance at these better trips or picking up or dropping or changing their days off if something comes up after the lines are awarded or working over vacation if you suddenly need more money, etc. It's intimately flexible throughout the whole month.

That's another problem I have with PBS. A four day training event should be 19-20 hours of at least credit applied to the threshold if not actual pay. If you have AQP and vacation in the same month like I do its going to be very difficult to maximize time off.

 

[Nevets]

All of our trips in line bidding before we got PBS were dropped into an open time as well if they conflicted with something like vacation, training, etc. Giving you those days off. I still like and have done better with our PBS. I am about 65 percent back on my seat and I have gotten everything I have asked for including, 16 days off and 85 hours of pay. I never go into open time anymore because the trips I am awarded would be the ones I am searching for in open time. Like I said, two thirds of the way back!!

You assume that EVERYONE gets what they want. It would guess that that is physically impossible. You also assume that EVERYONE is like you in that you are not always looking to improve what you have. With me for example, if I have an 18 hour 4 day, I would always trade it for an 18 hour 3 day. But that's just me. That is the flexibility of our system. You can take advantage of it if you want or you can do nothing. But you always have the opportunity to increase QOL if you want to put some effort into it.

 

[79%N1]

Well, youre about to kiss that goodbye!

 

[Nevets]

Well, youre about to kiss that goodbye!

There is certainly a 50/50 chance of that!

 

[screamingpax]

You assume that EVERYONE gets what they want. It would guess that that is physically impossible. You also assume that EVERYONE is like you in that you are not always looking to improve what you have. With me for example, if I have an 18 hour 4 day, I would always trade it for an 18 hour 3 day. But that's just me. That is the flexibility of our system. You can take advantage of it if you want or you can do nothing. But you always have the opportunity to increase QOL if you want to put some effort into it.

Well, I think if you took a poll right now, the vast majority of ASA pilots are getting what they want. Who wouldn't rather have a 18hr three day over a 18hr four day. I don't get your point. So what you are saying is that being as far back as I am on the airplane, and getting that many days off, commutable trips and 85 hrs of pay isn't flexible enough? I can literally pick days I want to work and which trips I want to work. How is that not flexible enough? I don't even have to put "effort" into it and I have a lot of control over my schedule. And I only spend 30 minutes a month on bidding. No more wasting time swapping or trading.

 

[CFI2766]

ALPA built the pairings for April.

At very best, this is only tangentially true.

 

[Redan]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't think so.

I worked with a Scheduling Rep. I followed all the suggestions to receive an acceptable award. I set my PCT low. I worked the preferences until it was down to only 500 pairings not on my bid sheet. I did not have an abundance of confusing preferences but kept it simple. My previous bids were quite successful.

My award for April: 11 days off. 90 + hour line (with PCT set at 70). Virtually nothing I wanted including specific dates. Four 4 days plus two 2 days placed on specific dates I requested. Following ALPA's suggestion to allow single days off to enhance the chances of being awarded my preferences produced one period of 6 on-1 off-4 on, and another of 4 on-1 off-4 on. Perhaps this is my own fault but I didn't ask for all that much. Other than reserve this is the worst line I've ever had. So I have to say I'm not quite sold on the system yet.

 

[Nevets]

Well, I think if you took a poll right now, the vast majority of ASA pilots are getting what they want. Who wouldn't rather have a 18hr three day over a 18hr four day. I don't get your point. So what you are saying is that being as far back as I am on the airplane, and getting that many days off, commutable trips and 85 hrs of pay isn't flexible enough? I can literally pick days I want to work and which trips I want to work. How is that not flexible enough? I don't even have to put "effort" into it and I have a lot of control over my schedule. And I only spend 30 minutes a month on bidding. No more wasting time swapping or trading.

Maybe for you, you got everything you wanted. But not everyone gets everything they wanted because their seniority didn't allow it. Their in lies one problem. Just read Redan's post above. In our system, he would have the opportunity to trade, move days off, drop, and or pick up all types of trips. The point is that in our system, I can trade my 18 hour 4 day for the 18 hour 3 day or the 12 hour 2 day or even a 7 hour day trip. I can do that even though my seniority didn't allow me to hold any of those trips. And even if its flexible enough, what is wrong with even more flexibility? Or are you of the mind that you are currently paid enough so no need to try to improve pay? Not much effort goes into our trip trading and the flexibility of it vastly outweighs whatever effort you would perceive out of trading, dropping, and picking up trips your seniority wouldn't allow on your original line anyways. I only spend about 30 minutes as well and to many of us, that time is not wasted when you can improve our lines with the flexibility we have to do it. And lastly, the system is so flexible that if its too much effort and waste of a time, no one forces you to improve your line. Just bid a reasonable amount of lines that your seniority would be able to hold and your done.

 

[screamingpax]

Do you forget, we had line bidding as well and we could drop, swap, or trade trips. I still find this to take much less time because the trips I would normally look do in open time I am awarded to begin with. Also, my seniority will hold it but my point is I don't have much of in it my seat. I sit about 66% of the way back and I can hold it. Lastly, of course we aren't paid enough, but I think 85 hours of pay is fair for 14 days of work. If we all worked one day a month and got paid for 100 we wouldn't have a company to work for. You XJT guys seem to forget we are a fee for departure carrier. It is what it is. We have to compete with other carriers like Pinnacle, Mesa, etc. We can't just demad more money and expect flying. It's unfortunate but it's the way it is. Lowest bidder wins. Even if we all became one, somebody new would start up and undercut our costs. Welcome to the Delta Connection family!!

 

[Redan]

I would be able to possibly improve my schedule, but with all the premium open time there's virtually no chance anyone will touch my trips/split pairings posted for pick up. I would be trying to swap for open time trips on different dates or one day less but our PBS LOA only allows for swaps on the same days until the reserve lines are added on I think the 27th. As to why this is, or why they feel it's necessary to wait so long to add the reserve lines I don't know.

In Feb, by the time the reserve lines were added so much of the open time was gone that I wasn't ever able to swap any trips. In March there was gobs of open time but being under block (as most of us were) made swaps nearly impossible unless you were willing to pay the penalty for going under the block of the original award. For April there should be allot of open time and I might be able to do some swaps after the reserve lines are finally added but the odds of early month swaps will be minimal. Being able to significantly improve my schedule is probably unlikely.

It was widely forecast that company would "improve" the April pairings to pacify the pilot group and it appears to have worked. However, the PBS LOA remains in place which allows them latitude to do virtually whatever they want, so a repeat performance of March could happen again at any time. Once again, the problem isn't PBS so much as the LOA allowing company near carte blanche in pairing construction. Since the ASA pilots are so easily pacified, the consistent pressure to change this in the JCBA may not be likely from our end.

 

[Medeco]

Do you think the company is going to allow the association to totally control the pairing construction?

ASA pilots being easily pacified is a stretch.

I think being realistic to the circumstances we are required to work under is a bit more true.

 

[princeton]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't think so.

...

My award for April: 11 days off. 90 + hour line (with PCT set at 70). Virtually nothing I wanted including specific dates. Four 4 days plus two 2 days placed on specific dates I requested. Following ALPA's suggestion to allow single days off to enhance the chances of being awarded my preferences produced one period of 6 on-1 off-4 on, and another of 4 on-1 off-4 on. Perhaps this is my own fault but I didn't ask for all that much. Other than reserve this is the worst line I've ever had. So I have to say I'm not quite sold on the system yet.

See, that's my concern with PBS (I'm XJT) - no flexibility.

This month, although I was awarded a crappy 12 day off 95 hour line; it took me two minutes in the initial line improvement window to get a 17 day off, 80 hour line with all 18 hour productive easy 3-day trips (with recurrent on the days I requested and six days off in a row on the days I wanted for a wedding in Europe).

If they're offering 200% I can pick IF I feel like it. Not saying that you can do it every month but in general it works.

All in all, that took me FIVE minutes: 2 minutes to bid my line (using the automatic line sorting tool) and three minutes in the ILIW (most of which was spent practicing hitting the "trade" button within a one second window)

 

[ace6453]

See, that's my concern with PBS (I'm XJT) - no flexibility. This month, although I was awarded a crappy 12 day off 95 hour line; it took me two minutes in the initial line improvement window to get a 17 day off, 80 hour line with all 18 hour productive easy 3-day trips (with recurrent on the days I requested and five days off in a row on the days I wanted for a wedding in Europe).

If they're offering 200% I can pick IF I feel like it. Not saying that you can do it every month but in general it works.

I have been generally happy with PBS, but we can't do anything like that. Are you able to trade your crappy 4 days for 3 days with no regard to the reserve staffing for those days? We can try to trade 4 for 3 days but hardly works due to no reserves. That sounds much better than what we have (PBS) or had (line bidding).

 

[princeton]

I have been generally happy with PBS, but we can't do anything like that. Are you able to trade your crappy 4 days for 3 days with no regard to the reserve staffing for those days? We can try to trade 4 for 3 days but hardly works due to no reserves. That sounds much better than what we have (PBS) or had (line bidding).

Yes. In the INITIAL Line Improvement Window which occurs just after your line is awarded (i.e. around 2 weeks before the month even starts and before the reserves get to bid) you can trade all you want.

They are only allowed to have a few days locked with negative coverage (four, I think). All the rest you can trade down on (i.e. a 2 day for a three day etc.). However, typically the ability to drop days goes away quickly as every one else drops.

The rest of the time (after the reserves are loaded etc.) you can trade away days IF there's enough coverage on the days you are dropping compared to the day you are picking up. (e.g. this month I traded away a 3-day picking up a 1-day on a day that had worse reserve coverage, even though all the days had negative reserve coverage)

 

[Freebrd]

that be the problem at ASEY, co wants as much control over QOL as possible and uses pairings, OT, and no trade/pickups til reserves get their schedule. line holders should be able to swap like XJT and then reserves get wat be left, sorry reserves, but that be the way it should be working