AS Furlough Mitigation

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Though I've never been furloughed since this is my first airline (hopefully last), I can relate to your frustrations and the fear of losing everything. I've been there a few times myself. I'm no spin doctor; I like to think that I call things the way I see it. I am not happy with the union nor am I a company man, but regarding this MOU I believe that union did the right thing by letting the membership vote. There's a long history of this union doing things behind closed doors and this MEC broke that mold. This MOU was another attempt to divide and conquer by shoving this POS down our throat-damned if you do, damned if you don't kinda deal. Yes, we have a W.D. union but management is the real enemy. As the song goes, "know your enemy".
I know it's unbearable for some of you right now, but hang in there. Believe it or not, things always work out for the better in the end. My support and prayers are with you.

 

[Ocity]

OKay, emotions are running a bit high here. Some of you guys are WAY out of line attacking the pilot group. Ask you friends at other airlines how many furlough mitigation programs they have at other airlines. I've been to a few airlines, and have been furloughed myself. The reserve/ line sharing program, LOA program, and two rounds of Early retirements just to mention a few. I know the COMPANY didn't allow the last round of early outs to proceed but don't forget that 12 guys WANTED to go and save those jobs. Also remember that they wanted to furlough 80 and only 52 went on this wave. I totally understand that if you are one of the 52 how badly this sucks but you CANNOT deny, by basic math, that these programs DID save some jobs.

Furloughs are a FACT OF LIFE in aviation. I realize that Alaska isn't at all used to it happening because it hasn't in nearly 3 decades here but it still happens. The heart of the MOU problem is this:

85% of this pilot group has been here longer than the remaining 15%. We were here pre and post Kasher. We know what this management group is capable of...and here they are, wanting us to set a precedent, establish "past practice" of opening up wide ranges of our contract that still is yet to be signed by the company. For what? A non-binding "promise" that they will not furlough 30 guys and not downgrade 13. YHGTBSM! If we fell for that, we'd deserve what we got. This thing is not nearly as benign as the company's "term sheet" would have you believe. The vast majority of the group saw right through that.

The lines are SUPPOSED to be at 75 hrs already and their not. (don't blame the union) They want us to pay twice for that program? F. That. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of a airline labor union here. We can't tell the company how to do a G damn thing. The only thing we can to is file greivances...that takes years sometimes. I know being furloughed sucks. I've seen my household income go from 180k a year to ZERO for nearly 16 months after 9-11. I understand the high emotion but that DOES NOT give some of you carte blanche to run your ill-informed mouths off, blaming the "greedy pussies" at Alaska airlines. It isn't about greed, it's about protecting the heart of our contract and subsequently our....YOUR careers.

First of all, we need to wait and see what actually happens October 1st. There is always a chance that the company is using these guys as bait to open the contract...personally I don't believe that's what's going on, and if I was slated to be furloughed, I would plan on that actually happening but there is always a chance it won't. BTW, this WILL pass. There's nothing anybody can do about you being furloughed. Make a point out of trying to enjoy this free time in your life because it's time that you will NEVER get back...being miserable will not help you or your family.

BTW, I'm on the reserve bubble, took a 4 month leave this year, and have kept my line under 80 hrs for well over a year, and I gladly pay the medical assessments and will continue to do so until our LAST guy needs it.

Flame on.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

...and here they are, wanting us to set a precedent, establish "past practice" of opening up wide ranges of our contract that still is yet to be signed by the company. For what? A non-binding "promise" that they will not furlough 30 guys and not downgrade 13. YHGTBSM! If we fell for that, we'd deserve what we got.

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that a MOU isn't just a wink and a "we'll see what we can do . . . "

And to say that this would "set a precedent" is a bad thing is ignoring the fact that a precedent can be in our favor as well. The Section 23 Mitigation has no precedence and since our union so tacitly approves VSA, I don't see the problem of setting an example that VSA goes when furloughs happen.

As a "No" voter, what would make Furlough Mitigation a passable MOU for you?

 

[mach none]

OKay, emotions are running a bit high here. Some of you guys are WAY out of line attacking the pilot group. Ask you friends at other airlines how many furlough mitigation programs they have at other airlines. I've been to a few airlines, and have been furloughed myself. The reserve/ line sharing program, LOA program, and two rounds of Early retirements just to mention a few. I know the COMPANY didn't allow the last round of early outs to proceed but don't forget that 12 guys WANTED to go and save those jobs. Also remember that they wanted to furlough 80 and only 52 went on this wave. I totally understand that if you are one of the 52 how badly this sucks but you CANNOT deny, by basic math, that these programs DID save some jobs.

Furloughs are a FACT OF LIFE in aviation. I realize that Alaska isn't at all used to it happening because it hasn't in nearly 3 decades here but it still happens. The heart of the MOU problem is this:

85% of this pilot group has been here longer than the remaining 15%. We were here pre and post Kasher. We know what this management group is capable of...and here they are, wanting us to set a precedent, establish "past practice" of opening up wide ranges of our contract that still is yet to be signed by the company. For what? A non-binding "promise" that they will not furlough 30 guys and not downgrade 13. YHGTBSM! If we fell for that, we'd deserve what we got. This thing is not nearly as benign as the company's "term sheet" would have you believe. The vast majority of the group saw right through that.

The lines are SUPPOSED to be at 75 hrs already and their not. (don't blame the union) They want us to pay twice for that program? F. That. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of a airline labor union here. We can't tell the company how to do a G damn thing. The only thing we can to is file greivances...that takes years sometimes. I know being furloughed sucks. I've seen my household income go from 180k a year to ZERO for nearly 16 months after 9-11. I understand the high emotion but that DOES NOT give some of you carte blanche to run your ill-informed mouths off, blaming the "greedy pussies" at Alaska airlines. It isn't about greed, it's about protecting the heart of our contract and subsequently our....YOUR careers.

First of all, we need to wait and see what actually happens October 1st. There is always a chance that the company is using these guys as bait to open the contract...personally I don't believe that's what's going on, and if I was slated to be furloughed, I would plan on that actually happening but there is always a chance it won't. BTW, this WILL pass. There's nothing anybody can do about you being furloughed. Make a point out of trying to enjoy this free time in your life because it's time that you will NEVER get back...being miserable will not help you or your family.

BTW, I'm on the reserve bubble, took a 4 month leave this year, and have kept my line under 80 hrs for well over a year, and I gladly pay the medical assessments and will continue to do so until our LAST guy needs it.

Flame on.

BRAVO. To bad you will be attacked for using sound reasoning and logic.

 

[Ocity]

I'd like to see the company use all of the furlough mitigation language we ALREADY PAID for...like the lines at 75hrs. I have no idea how much benefit the company actually realizes from VSA. I don't know anybody who does it, and as for myself I have no idea even HOW to do it. I'd be glad to see VSA go away during furlough. I'd agree to that in a heart beat. When they get into 2nd step, (something they've wanted to get rid of for years...even in the good times) I have to pause. That is a QOL issue from the vast majority of the pilots here. I won't agree to that as step trading and furlough seem to have little to do with eachother.

After Kasher slit our throats, the company came to us with a contract offer. That offer was way worse that what Kasher did, and it failed by almost 90% This company has a long history of attempting to leverage pilot emotion to get back something they otherwise could never negotiate. I'm guessing there are some BOD members that are a little more than pissed that our contract passed by 84%. In their perfect world it would pass by 50.000001% I'm guessing they feel they've grossly overpaid and now they want a do-over holding pilots hostage. The bottom line is: The concession window is F-ing closed and opening that many sections of our new contract to ANY company interpretation...despite any written language, is equivilent to playing Russian Roulette.

Remember, this company does NOTHING that doesn't benefit them first. The fact that they issued a term sheet alone should send up the red flags. I hate to sound like a pessamistic, paranoid D-bag, but I submit that the collective wisdom of the pilot group...85% voting this MOU down, should indicate something. Some want it to indicate that Alaska Pilots eat their young. To me, it speaks volumes as to how much trust you can place in the hands of this management team...ZERO. FWIW, I have never heard anyone even mention the problem with this MOU being the $$$$. If it were just money they wanted then this thing would have passed. They don't want money, they want an opening to start dismantling the contract...a contract they feel they got burned on.

Sorry you're furloughed. Please believe I want you back here as much as, (i assume) you do.

 

[Fubijaakr]

BRAVO. Too bad you will be attacked for using sound reasoning and logic.

Amen.

I'd be glad to see VSA go away during furlough. I'd agree to that in a heart beat.

Again, amen. VSA needs to be automatically suspended the day the first furloughed guy hits the street and not available until he's back on the property.

When they get into 2nd step, (something they've wanted to get rid of for years...even in the good times) I have to pause. That is a QOL issue from the vast majority of the pilots here. I won't agree to that as step trading and furlough seem to have little to do with eachother.

Agreed. Our mid-level seniority guys cannot adjust their schedules during 1st step. And step trading has NOTHING to do with staffing.

Remember, this company does NOTHING that doesn't benefit them first. The fact that they issued a term sheet alone should send up the red flags. I hate to sound like a pessamistic, paranoid D-bag, but I submit that the collective wisdom of the pilot group...85% voting this MOU down, should indicate something.

As does the same percentage approving the contract. The major difference is the 16%ers are more vocal.

 

[Snapshot]

As long as my finances allow, we will continue to donate to the furlough fund.

Apparently you think that throwing a life preserver to a guy you just threw overboard makes you some sort of swell guy. I mean really, that's more than he deserves, right? He actually thinks he's entitled to a place on YOUR boat!

I had my reasons and just because one voted NO doesn't make him/her selfish or an idiot.

There would have been 30 less names on that list.
30 Families.
30 Mortgages.
100 or so PEOPLE.
Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the "Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job." in their memory bank.
Grown men that have to move in with In-laws.

I've got to know. What, exactly, are your reasons for selling them all down the river when you could've prevented it? What did you get in the trade? What do you now have that is worth what they have all lost?

Though I've never been furloughed since this is my first airline (hopefully last), I can relate to your frustrations and the fear of losing everything.

Sure thing, champ. Tell us more about how we're the entitlement generation. Second furlough and fifth airline here. Will you send me a PM and let me know when I've paid enough dues to be a part of your generation that "earned it"?

 

[General Lee]

So, what happened? Did AK furlough people today? On another board someone posted that they announced 52 more furloughs. That would be a shame....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fubijaakr]

There are 52 more furloughs scheduled for Oct. 1. Of that 52, 6 are covered by LOAs and Military leaves. That leaves 46 actual pilots hitting the street in addition to the 60 that are already on furlough.

 

[Snapshot]

There's nothing anybody can do about you being furloughed.

You apparently didn't read the MOU. Not a "promise". A legal, binding, contract with very specific exit clauses and a very specific expiration date.
Yeah, being furloughed is a fact of many pilot lives. Yeah, the company should have stepped up and done the right thing. Guess what. They didn't. They put it in your hands. You didn't either.

I'd be glad to see VSA go away during furlough. I'd agree to that in a heart beat.

Really? You had an opportunity to not only do that (the 150% incentive), but also save 30 families and you passed.

Agreed. Our mid-level seniority guys cannot adjust their schedules during 1st step. And step trading has NOTHING to do with staffing.

Wow, that must suck. The mid-level guys not being able to adjust their schedules for a few months!?! The Horror! That pencils out to about one family you've thrown under the bus for every 2 weeks of scheduling adjust-ability for the Mid-level guys that actually use second step.

 

[Fubijaakr]

That's the thing about MemRat. 84% of the pilot group wasn't willing to gut the contract.

 

[Snapshot]

Some of you guys are WAY out of line attacking the pilot group. Ask you friends at other airlines how many furlough mitigation programs they have at other airlines.

We don't need to. Most of us have worked at enough other airlines with strong, dedicated pilot groups to make valid judgements. Having mitigation programs doesn't mean a thing if you VOTE AGAINST implementing them.

Remember, this company does NOTHING that doesn't benefit them first.

Neither does the vast majority of the individual pilots.

Y'all love to regale us with tales of it being an epic struggle against management. It is. The thing you're missing is that it isn't YOU against them, its US against them. You just abandoned 30 families behind enemy lines.
This is the same bunch of guys who sit around all day wailing that Allegiant and Virgin are undercutting them and destroying their ability to earn.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Snap,
You need some love and counseling; man, you really have snapped. With your comments, I can't differentiate between you and the selfish VSAing 60+ geezers - me me me. Do you have experience with how this management operates? If not, please shut your cake hole.
If you get furloughed, do the rest of the furloughed/soon to be furloughed brothers and bypass SK's furlough $$$. You squeal louder than a stuck pig!

 

[Snapshot]

Snap,
You need some love

All 30 of those families did.

I can't differentiate between you and the selfish VSAing 60+ geezers - me me me.

That one's already been answered:

Senior/VSA guy: "It's more important for me to make some extra money than it is for you to make any money"

Still waiting for your answer..................................................

There would have been 30 less names on that list. (NOT me, me, me)
30 Families.
30 Mortgages.
100 or so PEOPLE.
Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the "Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job." in their memory bank.
Grown men that have to move in with In-laws.

I've got to know. What, exactly, are your reasons for selling them all down the river when you could've prevented it? What did you get in the trade? What do you now have that is worth what they have all lost?

If not, please shut your cake hole. You squeal louder than a stuck pig!

You never know, maybe the Mods will give you an opportunity to vote me off the property. Maybe you'd sit there and tell a guy it's no big deal that he just voted away your livelihood, but not me. This is the consequences of your actions.

 

[Wally]

All in favor?

Snap,
You need some love and counseling; man, you really have snapped. With your comments, I can't differentiate between you and the selfish VSAing 60+ geezers - me me me. Do you have experience with how this management operates? If not, please shut your cake hole.
If you get furloughed, do the rest of the furloughed/soon to be furloughed brothers and bypass SK's furlough $$$. You squeal louder than a stuck pig!

I second the motion.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Give Snap a break. His heart is in the right place. It his hyperbolic rhetoric that undermines his message.

 

[Going2Baja]

Snap,
You need some love and counseling; man, you really have snapped. With your comments, I can't differentiate between you and the selfish VSAing 60+ geezers - me me me. Do you have experience with how this management operates? If not, please shut your cake hole.
If you get furloughed, do the rest of the furloughed/soon to be furloughed brothers and bypass SK's furlough $$$. You squeal louder than a stuck pig!

I agree w/ Snap 100%....If I didn't have to get asleep to cover my 4th turn in a row and wake up @230a I'd type a little. It's coming - don't you worry. But I can tell you, after 6 furloughs & 6 airlines...This is the WORST most SELF centered pilot group I have worked for. Nuf said - If I could leave for the same $$ - I would. Eat your young...what a joke! 24 to go..look out!

Baja.

 

[Fubijaakr]

If I hated the people I worked with that much, Baja, I'd go work somewhere else.

 

[Snapshot]

I second the motion.

The guy that hatesyesmen won't answer. Maybe you will.


There would have been 30 less names on that list.
30 Families.
30 Mortgages.
100 or so PEOPLE.
Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the "Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job." in their memory bank.
Grown men that have to move in with In-laws.

I've got to know. What, exactly, are your reasons for selling them all down the river when you could've prevented it? What did you get in the trade? What do you now have that is worth what they have all lost?

No hyperbole here. I'm not claiming y'all did anything other that exactly what you've done. If that clashes with whatever you tell yourself to make it seem like it didn't happen, that's on you.

 

[QCappy]

There's nothing anybody can do about you being furloughed. Make a point out of trying to enjoy this free time in your life because it's time that you will NEVER get back...being miserable will not help you or your family.

OK, I'll flame.

So I'm supposed to enjoy a time where my family lost it's entire income, I have to scrape by just to make ends meet, and hoping the next call is the one that will bring me back. I see.

Well, in that case, I'll give you a call from the multiple carnivals in various cities around the world that I'm going to visit during my happy time off.

Give me a break.