Are you sure things aren't bad at NJ too?

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Today, 15:40 #57 jehtplane vbmenu_register("postmenu_1749297", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flex-ible
Of course any personnel change at NJ would be the largest - they are the biggest fractional by far.

As far as the relationship to the contract, I think you will find that FX's cost per pilot is about the same as NJ's. You will notice that these two companies are the only ones that haven't furloughed. Perhaps furloughs are based on company performance, not employee pay.


I would say it is based on aircraft utilization and growth. CS did not take delivery of airframes that we hired for, hence the furloughs, FLOPS is getting rid of airframes, hence the furloughs. I would not be throwing stones at CS or FlightOps. Right now Flex has the lowest aircraft utilization out of the Big 4. CS has the highest. I do not want to see anyone else on the street, but lets be realistic, utilization is WAY DOWN, Fractional sales are almost non-existent, Good luck to us all, EVERYONE is gonna feel some of this downturn before it is all said and done.
Last edited by jehtplane : Today at 15:47.

Just wondering where you get the information about utilization rates. I am not saying you are wrong. I am just curious.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Tax cuts for the Rich save jobs.... so they can afford private jets.

you are funny!

The rich are flying less because:
1) The board don't want their CEOs to
2) It makes bad PR during recession
NOT because they ran outta money, they could careless about your tax cuts.

Concessions are bad policies. That's true. I would prefer to work fewer days for lesser pay to save jobs. Cutting hours, not cutting rates.

 

[clickclickboom]

hate to tell you but our tails end with QS and the other frac's blinked.

We aren't jetblue and the typical 121 economics don't apply to us.

I was referring to flops not NJA my point was in simpleton terms is that NJA is a strong company with solid complimentary infrastructure that should be a solid survivor.

Diesel I did the better part of a decade at a fractional, as well as pt 91, 135, set up three small flight departments and currently fly 121 I have almost been around the block once.

I have said for years that the fractional bubble would pop and the current economic situation is the catalyst. Things are going to get much worse before they get better unfortunately.

Keep in mind that in a hot growth market only nja and flex for a small period of time were profitable.

I have a good friend that is a regional manager for Signature and he said the sales numbers are downright scary

 

[Hogprint]

but I don't see any way NJ can afford to maintain a heavy contract burden in today's market. I originally stated that I though it would happen by year's end. Now I think it will be much sooner.

A heavy contract burden? I've said this on more than one occasion on this forum, but you seem to be very ignorant of our '05 contract. The 04 to 05 comparison of what monies were offered and what was given are huge. In fact I think we left money on the table but that is another debate for another day.

I can assure you there is no BURDEN involved.

I would add to our hypothetical scenario, I would be curious if management would take a lower salary to keep pilots and VP's to the VP on property? Think that'll happen? If it does I'll eat my hat and yours.

 

[FLYLOW22]

My version of "bigger" will be pct of flight crews and airplanes vs. any of the others. I hope it's not true, but I don't see any way NJ can afford to maintain a heavy contract burden in today's market. I originally stated that I though it would happen by year's end. Now I think it will be much sooner.

When it happens, what I will be curious about will be if NJASAP would be willing to renegotiate the contract prior to the furloughs to a lower pay amount that will keep more pilots on the property or if they will just maintain status quo and let the bottom seniority guys drop off. If they attempt to re-negotiate before and take pay cuts to save jobs, I'll eat my hat.

Market observation... it seems that the market is consolidating.

I would wager that there will be fewer companies out there, sooner than later, to fly fractional customers.

Those customers will need to go somewhere.

NJA will be open for business, and at full strength.

Let me know how the hat tastes... nut sack.

 

[realityman]

.

But the point is ... Concessions don't save jobs.

History has proven this point time and time again. Well said Gun.

 

[AvroJockey]

Love the big, blue font as well. That's classy.

You know how I know he's gay...?

Because he likes Powder Blue Times New Roman.

 

[gunfyter]

you are funny!

The rich ... could careless about your tax cuts..

Then they shouldn't care at all about Pilot Salaries... which is much less significant than the difference in taxes they'll pay....

No Concessions.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Payroll or Headcount?

Concesssions are the dumb mistake airline unions have committed. Now they have to work to go back where they were decades ago.

Fracs are a different business model. Parking airplanes does not diminish the value of them for the owners if the flying can be accomplished with fewer airplanes. By parking airplanes and reducing the cost of labor, a fractional can keep the company stable during the economic downturn.

The question is, how does that labor cost get reduced during the period of reduced flying? Does NJASAP renegotiate with the company to reduce the amount of money spent on labor or does NJASAP keep the existing contract and support reducing the headcount?

Either way, the overall cost of labor will need to be reduced, either through reduced payroll or reduced headcount.

My question is, will NJASAP choose what our new president suggested in his speech yesterday or will they go against the new president (who is a union advocate) and allow headcount to be reduced?

Historically, unions choose to protect the high payroll over headcount. I don't see NJASAP doing anything different than any other union, and the break from the IBT will hurt them during these tough times.

 

[Diesel]

I have said for years that the fractional bubble would pop and the current economic situation is the catalyst. Things are going to get much worse before they get better unfortunately.

Well then you've been wrong for years. Its easy to play rainmaker.

 

[DO-82 driver]

I firmly believe that if the market doesn't get any worse it stands a good chance of improving.

If it doesn't, then it probably won't.

 

[G200_PILOT]

I firmly believe that if the market doesn't get any worse it stands a good chance of improving.

If it doesn't, then it probably won't.

Ummmm, yeah. And if it doesn't get any colder outside, it stands a good chance to get warmer. But if it does get colder, then it probably won't get warmer...

Holy crap!!!

 

[Diesel]

Well its -10 here this morning, truck won't start (forgot to plug it in) sled will start (that I plugged in)

Doh

 

[G200_PILOT]

Diesel, can you believe that it's 37 degrees down here this morning? We haven't seen it this cold in a long time. I mean man, I just hope my boat starts up this afternoon when it warms up. Hehe!:beer:

 

[jegermeister]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Trying to guess what the markets will do and how that will effect each fractional is a wild guess at best.

What I don't feel is a guess. Is the way that NetJets will conduct itself in the coming year.

I left a regional with 2/3 of the pilot group below me last year to come to NetJets. I knew that the economy was turning soft and that the majors were already shedding employees. I came here because of the corporate culture. That upper management has created. When I heard the story of Mr. S using his own credit card to make payroll during our companies early transition to fractional flying, I knew that if the time came for a furlough it would be for the greater good and not corporate greed. I couldn't say that about the company I was working for or the majors that I considered going to.

In the end I feel that NetJets will continue to do good for it's owners and employees.

 

[fischman]

Ummmm, yeah. And if it doesn't get any colder outside, it stands a good chance to get warmer. But if it does get colder, then it probably won't get warmer...

Holy crap!!!

Exactly...

 

[Fozzy]

Well its -10 here this morning, truck won't start (forgot to plug it in) sled will start (that I plugged in)

Doh

Already did 50 miles today. What a perfect day.

This winter has been one of the best in recent memory. Got to love this global warming!

 

[Diesel]

I'm headed to canada, going to try and help out our brothers to the north put their children through college.

 

[Fozzy]

I'm headed to canada, going to try and help out our brothers to the north put their children through college.

Just lock the sled up tight. They can get a whole semester from parting out your sled.

Old Forge first week of Feb for me! Can not wait.

 

[gunfyter]

This is what you do right before asking for concessions from Pilots

Warren Buffett Is Close to Buying Regional Airport in Frankfurt
[SIZE=-1]Bloomberg - 3 hours ago[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]21 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire investor Warren Buffett is close to buying the Egelsbach airport in Frankfurt, Germany, through his business-jet venture ...
[/SIZE]​

Questions 19?:laugh:

 

[jonjuan]

Highly profitable company threatens layoffs

Microsoft, considered one of the best managed companies in the world with profits in the Billions and sitting on $25 Billion in cash is expected to announce layoffs. With your logic, if they layoff, they shouldn't be spending money elsewhere.
http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE50J7QN20090121

I wonder what Buffet and Gates are discussing here?
http://activewin.com/articles/2007/9.shtml
NEW YORK/BOSTON (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp is expected to post a quarterly profit that misses its own target and announce thousands of job cuts this week as the global economic slump hurts even the technology industry's biggest players.
When the leading software maker reports fiscal second quarter results on Thursday, investors are likely to press for comments on its outlook and on Yahoo Inc, whose search business has been the object of Microsoft's desires.
The report comes against a backdrop of a wounded global economy that has stifled demand for everything from personal computers to business software and video games, all markets in which Microsoft is a significant player.
"All eyes are on the forecast," said Jefferies & Co analyst Katherine Egbert. "Expectations for the guidance are pretty low."
Analysts on average put Microsoft's profit at 49 cents a share for the quarter ended December 31, which includes a U.S. holiday shopping season that has been called the worst in at least four decades. The Redmond, Washington-based company had forecast a per-share profit of 51 cents to 53 cents for the quarter.
Wall Street is looking for quarterly revenue of $17.1 billion, according to Reuters Estimates, also short of Microsoft's own target of $17.3 billion to $17.8 billion.
Egbert says she expects Microsoft to report sales of its Windows software for PCs and laptops to drop 3 percent from a year earlier, making it the toughest quarter in eight years. She blames the shortfall on weak consumer sales, noting that businesses have yet to cut back as much as retail shoppers.
Wall Street's expectations for Microsoft's performance for its fiscal year ending in June 2009 have declined since it last reported results three months ago.
Analyst forecasts for full-year net income have dropped 10 percent to $17.77 billion, while revenue projections are down 4.4 percent at $63.68 billion, according to Reuters Estimates.
POSSIBLE JOB CUTS
With an eye on reducing costs, Microsoft is widely expected to announce that it will cut jobs, following similar moves by other tech firms, including AT&T Inc, Dell Inc, Motorola Inc and Advance Micro Devices Inc.
"Checks indicate that Microsoft is likely to engage in headcount reductions to the tune of 6,000 to 8,000 employees or 6 percent to 8 percent of its 95,000 workforce," said McAdams Wright Ragen analyst Sid Parakh. "Our checks also revealed some speculation over the potential for a second round of cuts in some groups sometime later in the year."

 

[gunfyter]

Some posters on this board seem almost like vultures ... watching and wishing for the demise of other people's careers and companies.

I have a lot of posts on this board but I don't think I have posted negative information on the health of other people's companies. Except maybe that they'd be better off with a union.

Yes, by my logic, NJ has no intention of seeking concessions or furloughs ... while purchasing an airport in Germany.... Nor would we agree to concessions.

 

[jehtplane]

Some posters on this board seem almost like vultures ... watching and wishing for the demise of other people's careers and companies.

I have a lot of posts on this board but I don't think I have posted negative information on the health of other people's companies. Except maybe that they'd be better off with a union.

Yes, by my logic, NJ has no intention of seeking concessions or furloughs ... while purchasing an airport in Germany.... Nor would we agree to concessions.

No offense, but you guys do tend use FI as your personal gloat site. I you guys are gonna do that as much as you do than you should be able to take a little heat. Besides if your company is so great and you have absolutely nothing to worry about and NJ is king than why care what some posters on FI think? How many threads or posts on FI are about NJ's?

Vanity, definitely my favorite sin........

 

[gunfyter]

No offense, but you guys do tend use FI as your personal gloat site. I you guys are gonna do that as much as you do than you should be able to take a little heat. Besides if your company is so great and you have absolutely nothing to worry about and NJ is king than why care what some posters on FI think? How many threads or posts on FI are about NJ's?

Vanity, definitely my favorite sin........

Jeht, I am talking about ME... not "Us guys".

And by the way ... go back 4 to 5 years on this board....

You will see "US guys" took massive Sh!t from the Many .... Relentlessly. Go ahead and look at threads in 2003, 2004 and 2005.

I think some of US ... may still be in the "Serve them Crow" mode. But I am not in that mode.

But yes... our company is great. I am not presently worried nor do I care what FI posters think. I just wanted to point out that certain people are being pr!cks. Including some of "us".

I don't understand people taking pleasure in the misfortune of others. After all, the health of the company has much less to do with me or you ... than the competency of our respective company managements.

I am not in management and I take neither credit nor blame for the success or failures of their decisions.

 

[CALRepublic]

Some posters on this board seem almost like vultures ... watching and wishing for the demise of other people's careers and companies.

Yes 100% correct.

There are many people, a few on this site (we all know who they are) who would like nothing more than to see us go down the sh**ter... Netjets is hated by many, for many reasons... NJA, and Southwest are like the Yankees of flying, everybody against us.

 

[fob727]

But yes... our company is great

This too...shall pass:beer:

 

[CALRepublic]

No offense, but you guys do tend use FI as your personal gloat site. I you guys are gonna do that as much as you do than you should be able to take a little heat. Besides if your company is so great and you have absolutely nothing to worry about and NJ is king than why care what some posters on FI think? How many threads or posts on FI are about NJ's?

Vanity, definitely my favorite sin........

1- "how many threads about NJ"? Do a search, and you'll notice that a good portion of those threads were started by people trying to get info about NJ.

2- "Our company is so great"- I am so sick of hearing this bulls***t, and it really pisses me off. You guys act like we come on here and say "our company is great" or like that other thread "are you sure nothing is wrong with NJ", I've never seen an NJA guy come in here and say "I'm sure nothing is wrong at NetJets".

I have a question for you-
-Do you want me to apologize for NJA not furlouging??

When CS, FLOPS and Xojet announced furloughs, we came here and offered support, what else do you want us to do??

 

[ArtVandalay]

I'm sorry but, I'm gonna have to agree here. I'm absolutely sick of you NJ guys in the FBO's. I know it's not all of you but, a good majority (sorry). The vanity and attitude amongst you is getting old. I don't wish layoffs on you or anyone but, I don't see how your current model can survive in this market. Too many of you sitting in FBO's all day all over the country. Last week I hit 4-5 FBO's in one day and there were at least 4 crews at each one sitting standby--AND complaining about crew meals. Be appreciative not arrogant. The candle that shines the brightest....

 

[CA1900]

I'm sorry but, I'm gonna have to agree here. I'm absolutely sick of you NJ guys in the FBO's.

There are over 3000 of us. Get used to it.

The vanity and attitude amongst you is getting old.

We're not here to impress you. We're here to be available for our owners.

I don't wish layoffs on you or anyone but, I don't see how your current model can survive in this market. Too many of you sitting in FBO's all day all over the country.

We're on salary. We're paid whether we're at the airport or not. From a business point of view, doesn't it make sense to have crews available with their airplanes?

... complaining about crew meals. Be appreciative not arrogant....

Our company pays good money for crew meals; outrageous money, in some cases. But they're a necessity if we're to be available at the airport. More often than not, they're fine; sometimes, they're even great, like the stuff I got in PHX this week.

But sometimes, they're terrible, and we have a real problem when a caterer takes our money and doesn't provide us what we're paying for. Take this, for example:

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9579/img0102wo3.jpg

That's supposed to be a panini; it's a hot dog bun burned on the grill. It was completely inedible. If you ordered a panini at a restaurant and they brought that to you, would you just smile and be appreciative?

Exactly.

 

[fly4funcrj]

Let me guess...rudy's? or stevies? lol