Apology

[acaTerry]

We were fighting?

 

[atrdriver]

One other thing that I haven't seen discussed is the clearance. Isn't LEX usually a RH/6000 on departure? I've only been there twice this year. Somebody mentioned the heading bug. This is a really strange accident.

Most times I get a takeoff clearance at LEX it is heading 200 to 6000 feet. That is always going to ATL, departing from 22. Departing 4 is it 060 heading to 6000.

I don't think that you need to come to a stop before starting your takeoff roll. I do however, think that the heading bug should be on runway heading until the initial turn point. At ASA we put the heading bug on the initial heading, NOT runway heading. I would imagine that is how CMR does it too. If the heading bug is on runway heading a rolling takoff is fine, you will just be a little embarrased if you have to abort when the bug isn't where it is supposed to be.

 

[asmn]

I don't know if I quite agree with saying anyone coud make this mistake. To say a professional would make a mistake sure we all do, but this case is slightly different. This falls under the careless and wreckless operation of an aircraft category. (this is not meant to be flame bait merely stating an opinion) Not only did they recognize the signs that they were possibly on the wrong runway, they chose to ignore them according to the CVR. Lack of proper interpretation of airport signs, impropery identifing runway markings, omission or misinterpretation of flight instruments, not having the chart out for taxi or not reading it correctly, believing in gut feeling over that of the flight instruments....the list goes on and on. I'm not a perfect pilot and I make mistakes all the time, and I think 100% of you out there could have made the mistake of taking the wrong runway. However, to not recognize that mistake immediately I don't know.....

They could not check the airport diagram because it didn't show the new location of the threshold of runway 22. Taxiway A closure not notamed and we won't know if it was on the ATIS for months. The notam regarding over a 400 foot displacement south of the 22 threshold was:

LEX 4/22 ASDA 7003 TORA 7003 TODA 7003 LDA 6603 WEF 0608202200

Not the standard LEX 22 New threshold relocated ___ feet SW ___ feet remaining. No temporary construction diagrams were provided or have been yet. The general public has more information about LEX's new layout then pilots. New diagram: (Scroll down)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-28-ntsb-kentucky-crash_x.htm

Lights for 4/22 TDZE REIL CL ots, and runway distance remaining signs, vasi missing, so lack of edge lights as well might not seem inconsistent. New taxiway centerline brings you past numbers on runway for 26. All of above decreased their normal situational awareness and made a different picture than what they'd seen many times before.

Wrong heading? Should have been checked. I'd like to think that I look everytime but can't honestly be sure. Stopping and asking about something that looked odd is an option too. The list of irregularities in LEX construction and notification of pilots goes on and on and that is only what we know so far. Careless and wreckless operation? We'll determine this when the investigation is over.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Hey ATR you said the magic word -- abort. I remember all three of the aborts that I've ever called (plus one single pilot in a King Air). I think another human factors issue in this accident needs to focus on aborted takeoffs. (NTSB are you listening?)

At some point on that takeoff, either the PNF Captain or the PF FO realized that there was a problem. I gotta think when they crossed the actual Rwy 22 they knew what was up. Facing the choice of ending up in the grass by aborting, or attempting to fly and maybe getting away with the mistake, they chose to fly. I think we ALL understand that scenario, don't we?

There needs to be a whole new discussion about this if future safety can be served. We feel ok if we abort for engine failure, birds on the runway, blown tire, etc. But we gotta reach deep and ask how many of us would have aborted that takeoff as a result of us using the wrong runway, and ending up in the grass. I hope the NTSB goes into this.

 

[CatYaaak]

Whether it stands up or not, the pay is definitely an issue that affects safety. Pilots who have to live on below-poverty level pay, and work till they are zombies will be of deteriorated mental states. Even in ideal circumstances there are things going on in a regional pilots head that are not flight related. Don't pull out the "a professional will block it out" argument. There is simply no excuse that they have to live like they do...all for some tightwads desire to save $3 on a ticket.
The airline passengers haven't the mental ability to grasp all the issues and consequences of a situation like this. And it is a grisly reminder to all you kids out there who brag about how "easy" the job is. Pull your heads out of your rear end and THINK about your job's consequences more seriously.

From the soapbox,

Terry

You know what Terry?....that stuff you're talking about?....a professional pilot will block it out. While they're flying.

The "businessman/lawyer/doctor" pilot living FAR above the average income level yet takes off in their Trinidad or Baron stressing-out about their worldly problems drill holes with great frequency, and their insurance rates reflect this.

Plenty of highly-paid Legacy pilots also splashed even during the Gravy Train days. Their ability to buy 3 houses and 2 boats while paying alimony didn't make a difference.

Airline passengers have NO moral obligation to try and grasp your "issues"...their obligation is to follow the crew's instructions once they board the aircraft. That's it. YOU are the one who's going to be held to the higher standard because you....to them....are part of the Company they're trusting will do what you say you'll do; operate to the highest level of safety regardless. The contract your pilot group negotiated with the Company is YOUR contract, not theirs, and they didn't sit around the negotiating table.

And why would you hold the pax in such low regard? You sound bitter. I commute and repo on the airlines literally around the world, and for the life of me I've never heard any passengers discussing the pilots' salaries, lives, how easy it is to fly, etc. etc. This may be hard for you to believe, but they talk about us as much as you talk about the shuttle bus driver on the way to the hotel.

Emergency room doctors work long hectic nights for little $$ while deep in debt after paying years of dues under less-than-perfect conditions and equipment. If one mistakedly cuts out the liver of your loved one with fatal results instead of just removing the spleen that ruptured in the car crash, will you say "Doctor, that's ok I didnt understand your personal issues"?

There are bigger issues in the world than money that will most likely bring stress into anyone's career. Burned out to the point safety is affected?....quit. That's your moral obligation to the pax.

 

[acaTerry]

You know what Terry?....that stuff you're talking about?....a professional pilot will block it out. While they're flying.

The "businessman/lawyer/doctor" pilot living FAR above the average income level yet takes off in their Trinidad or Baron stressing-out about their worldly problems drill holes with great frequency, and their insurance rates reflect this.

More often caused by lack of skills for the aircraft and conditions they fly in (100 hr pilots in the Bonanza, then the Malibu...see the trend?).

Plenty of highly-paid Legacy pilots also splashed even during the Gravy Train days. Their ability to buy 3 houses and 2 boats while paying alimony didn't make a difference.

Please define "plenty".

Airline passengers have NO moral obligation to try and grasp your "issues"...their obligation is to follow the crew's instructions once they board the aircraft. That's it.

And they don't. Unfastening seatbelts as soon as landed, getting up with the seatbelt sign on...so on

YOU are the one who's going to be held to the higher standard because you....to them....are part of the Company they're trusting will do what you say you'll do; operate to the highest level of safety regardless.

Agreed.

The contract your pilot group negotiated with the Company is YOUR contract, not theirs, and they didn't sit around the negotiating table.

BUT they are very vocal, and many write letters....

And why would you hold the pax in such low regard? You sound bitter.

I am not bitter. In fact I love my passengers...at the fracs. They are responsible people, not the Wal-Mart grade public who expect jet aircraft tickets at Greyhound bus prices.


I commute and repo on the airlines literally around the world, and for the life of me I've never heard any passengers discussing the pilots' salaries, lives, how easy it is to fly, etc. etc.

You must be deaf.

This may be hard for you to believe, but they talk about us as much as you talk about the shuttle bus driver on the way to the hotel.

Repeat...you must be deaf.

Emergency room doctors work long hectic nights for little $$ while deep in debt after paying years of dues under less-than-perfect conditions and equipment. If one mistakedly cuts out the liver of your loved one with fatal results instead of just removing the spleen that ruptured in the car crash, will you say "Doctor, that's ok I didnt understand your personal issues"?

I see no connection between this point and what I said...


There are bigger issues in the world than money that will most likely bring stress into anyone's career. Burned out to the point safety is affected?....quit. That's your moral obligation to the pax.

Why should a guy have to quit after having invested EVERYTHING into a one-way career? I say make the pax pay what it costs to travel. Every other industry does it...charge what things cost to produce. Why should airline employees have to fund this fare war with their wallets and their bodies?

?????

 

[Nindiri]

It amazes me how some people here casually suggest that the crew should have just aborted and gone into the grass just like a highspeed abort is nothing more than a minor nuisance. The fact is, once they realized their error they had about a nanosecond to decide whether to abort with the definite result of multiple deaths, or try to get it airborne and clear the obstacles. Given their situation, the captain made what he thought was the best decision at the time.

 

[acaTerry]

There are always the "experts" who voice their "I'm too good to have done that". They have the luxury of seeing things AFTER they happen.

 

[Tram]

Yep, and this board is where they all seem to congregate..

 

[Patriot328]

It amazes me how some people here casually suggest that the crew should have just aborted and gone into the grass just like a highspeed abort is nothing more than a minor nuisance. The fact is, once they realized their error they had about a nanosecond to decide whether to abort with the definite result of multiple deaths, or try to get it airborne and clear the obstacles. Given their situation, the captain made what he thought was the best decision at the time.

Very true, and not that they would have known this, but I imagine hitting that berm (the one the gear grazed) at 120kts would have resulted in the smae effect as continuing the take off and hitting the trees.