Apology

[ReportCanoa]

Fine, even if that's true, it didn't "set off alarm bells" or whatever. Barreling down the runway you don't have a lot of time to consider if you remember the hump on this runway last night or whatever such nonsense. There are other things going on, monitoring speeds, engine instruments, crosswind correction. etc. If you began the takeoff thinking you're on a correct runway, it's going to take a heck of a lot more stimulus to make you reject the takeoff.

There is more nonsense from people on this board who either drive a desk for a living, or the have no real experience- 'cause the first thing a pro pilot will do is admit that this very thing could have happened to them if circumstances and stimuli were just right, which is exactly what the investigation will reveal- a series of mitigating factors combined with mistakes- human errors. Surprised this could happen? Don't be.

 

[nichnack]

I'm referring to the crew doing everything they could to get the airplane off the ground, once they realized what was happening. There is no doubt these pilots made a mistake. I used the wrong word when I said, "negligence", and wasn't referring to the idea they somehow did this on purpose. But, pilot error is to blame, and that does seem evident now. The reason for the error is what really needs to be looked into. Lack of rest, stress, poor signage, lack of an updated airport diagram, etc.

I think a few things that need to change as a result of this accident;

1) ATC should now be required to keep an eye on, and watch each aircraft they give clearance to, takeoff, and land. UNLESS tower obtructions somewhow prohibit view of the runway. In this case, someothing should be looked into as far as cameras put in those places, with monitors on the tower, or something, so there are no "blind" spots. This may be an issue at busier airports, but maybe that is a reason for staffing more ATCers.

2) No clearances should be asked for by the pilots, or given by ATC until the aircraft has come to a stop at the hold short line of the runway, and ATC verifies they are stopped at the correct runway assigned for departure. No more takeoff clearances given while still taxiing, or even still at the gate.

3) This would be an airline thing, but pilots should be required to taxi onto and position the plane on the runway for departure, but come to a stop, verify the heading indicator indicates they are on the correct runway, before blasting off.

That is three things to go through, all of which are simple, having to be missed, in order for this to happen again.

1) and 2) would be impossible on a bad visibility day and would slow aiport operations way down.
3) This is a possiblity and could become a normal operation in the future.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

1) and 2) would be impossible on a bad visibility day and would slow aiport operations way down.
3) This is a possiblity and could become a normal operation in the future.

Yes, you are right. 1 and 2 would also be hard at hub airports with multiple takeoffs and landings at the same time, but I do think ATC needs to play a part in verifying aircraft are doing what they are told, both on the ground, and in the air.

#3 I think is very simple, and really does need to become common practice. Giving take off clearance before leaving the gate, or giving take off clearance while the airplane is still taxiing doesn't seem safe. This should only be done once the aircraft has stopped at the hold short line. Then of course, airlines should do away with the rolling take off, and be required to position the airplane on the runway, stop, verify heading matches runway, once that is done, blast off. It might take 10 seconds to do that, and could save lives.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

There is more nonsense from people on this board who either drive a desk for a living, or the have no real experience- 'cause the first thing a pro pilot will do is admit that this very thing could have happened to them if circumstances and stimuli were just right, which is exactly what the investigation will reveal- a series of mitigating factors combined with mistakes- human errors. Surprised this could happen? Don't be.

I don't know if I quite agree with saying anyone coud make this mistake. To say a professional would make a mistake sure we all do, but this case is slightly different. This falls under the careless and wreckless operation of an aircraft category. (this is not meant to be flame bait merely stating an opinion) Not only did they recognize the signs that they were possibly on the wrong runway, they chose to ignore them according to the CVR. Lack of proper interpretation of airport signs, impropery identifing runway markings, omission or misinterpretation of flight instruments, not having the chart out for taxi or not reading it correctly, believing in gut feeling over that of the flight instruments....the list goes on and on. I'm not a perfect pilot and I make mistakes all the time, and I think 100% of you out there could have made the mistake of taking the wrong runway. However, to not recognize that mistake immediately I don't know.....

 

[HoserASA]

1) ATC should now be required to keep an eye on, and watch each aircraft they give clearance to, takeoff, and land. UNLESS tower obtructions somewhow prohibit view of the runway. In this case, someothing should be looked into as far as cameras put in those places, with monitors on the tower, or something, so there are no "blind" spots. This may be an issue at busier airports, but maybe that is a reason for staffing more ATCers..

As a retired USAF controller, the tower controller should have been watching that plane. He should have checked the runway to insure it was clear, clear the aircraft for TO, and watch the plane's takeoff, day or night. The tower controller can determine whether the plane is on either runway too, day or night. Perhaps the tower controller had other duties, but I believe they could have waited while he watched this plane takeoff. No excuse. Along with the crew, the controller is another set of eyes that possibly could have caught this. At least that's the way it's supposed to be done. My opinion.

Hoser
ASA CRJ Capt

 

[HoserASA]

Yes, you are right. 1 and 2 would also be hard at hub airports with multiple takeoffs and landings at the same time, quote]

Not really. At ATL, separate controllers control the arrival and departure runways. The controller at LEX should have been watching that plane. It may have prevented this incident.

Hoser
ASA CRJ Capt
Retired ATC

 

[acaTerry]

29 years for me, and neither are mine.

It is YOU who condescends the customers, even to the point of saying it's "well founded"; that makes YOU the elitist.

Oh whatever you say....

 

[gto2002]

how was the weather if any one has a copy of themetar. I do not understand how it was not caught when they pulled out in the runway with the big painted numbers. When I have done a low vis t/o just to make sure I am at the beginning of the runway I look for the numbers. Anyway it was horrible and totally preventable.

Unfortunate

 

[acaTerry]

ACATerry :
could you clarify the poit that said,
"As for the traveling public, if they want such high safety, then they need to pay for it."

Sure. The same public who, whenever a pilot work action takes place, b1tches about our dissatisfaction of making $17,000 a year to fly jet airplanes with being away from home 200-300 hrs a month, with varying schedules, flying planes with deferred equipment, in varying weather, etc etc is the same public that demands uncompromised safety. At the same time, their wanting rock-bottom prices feeds this. They need to accept the fact that ticket prices need to reflect the cost of providing a service. Just like they accept the cost of groceries, movies, ball games, etc.
Funny, they blindly accept with minimal complaining, the TSA fees and other "security" fees. But when an airlines pilot group goes to walk...WHAM!!!!


Little cindy lou gets on board... who has no clue about airline pilot pay.

Actually, payscales are available to the public and it is not all-that unknown anymore. Even my neighbor, who does not even travel by plane knows what you guys make.

A captain that passed a stressful type ride and has done this thousands of times.

I call BS on this. A type ride in a sim. Wooooooow. No ATC, no radio chatter, no FA calling the cockpit, no other aircraft to watch, no radar echoes...you get the idea. I am typed in 6 planes, and the type rides are simply a matter of providing the sim a fixed set of variables (X power plus X pitch plus X bank plus X configuration will always give the predetermined response).

There was fifty /fifty chance he was going to screw it up if you look at the odds.

I agree.

There were two runways right? And what about being a good FO. Looking at the airport diagram?

Have you EVER been an FO on a short taxi, especially with all the first flight of day items?!!!!!!!! This guys head was likely down in the cockpit, man!


Somehow using safety and adding to it different levels or degrees when living is the only level you can ascribe and I'll bet you'll want to rethink that comment.

Say again? I think you are transmitting on the wrong frequency here pal.

That comment was as disrespectful to those 49 souls and my bantering about who and what the poor chap did in the left seat and allowed to take place on his watch.

I fail to see how. I said nothing that was not true. Perhaps you need to travel more as a passenger. I do twice weekly, and I hear what the pax say. They are clear about cheap. They hate us for being able to jumpseat, they hate that we occasionally get to preboard (with our REQUIRED flight baggage), the ticket cost too much, the plane is easy to fly because it said so on Discovery Channel, so on and so on... I hear these remarks ALL THE TIME. And the common link? Its always the pilots fault.

what about calling in sick?

I don't know what dreamland you live in, but in the airlines I have worked for, call in sick / fatigued more than a few days a year and you get FIRED. This has been challenged and has stood up in court.

"

I have no disagreement that this was crew error. But you really need to look at the exterior factors that lead to this kind of thing. Look through the ASRS (available on the web). This happens hundreds of times. The jig was up on this one though, and it turned fatal. If you continue to deny the FACT that pilots operate under stresses that could be lessened by not having BS pay, BS workrules and a BS agency trying to violate them everytime they turn around...then your head is in the sand just as much as the FAA who insists that rest and duty rules are safe.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

As to the three suggestions, #3 is just good aviating. We should probably all adopt that one. I think that will be the big lesson for us all.

I'd hate to see #2 become the norm. Don't we all try NOT to stop at the hold line in order to maintain a continuous "flow" from taxi to takeoff? Same after landing.

As for #1, I'd hate to see ATC take any blame here. Their job is separating airplanes. If they have one airplane in their airspace, do they really have to watch it? That seems a little ridiculous to me. Shouldn't they be able to depend on us to get the airplane to the correct runway?

One other thing that I haven't seen discussed is the clearance. Isn't LEX usually a RH/6000 on departure? I've only been there twice this year. Somebody mentioned the heading bug. This is a really strange accident.

Hey Terry it's all good man; we just disagree. Sorry for the fight.

 

[acaTerry]

We were fighting?

 

[atrdriver]

One other thing that I haven't seen discussed is the clearance. Isn't LEX usually a RH/6000 on departure? I've only been there twice this year. Somebody mentioned the heading bug. This is a really strange accident.

Most times I get a takeoff clearance at LEX it is heading 200 to 6000 feet. That is always going to ATL, departing from 22. Departing 4 is it 060 heading to 6000.

I don't think that you need to come to a stop before starting your takeoff roll. I do however, think that the heading bug should be on runway heading until the initial turn point. At ASA we put the heading bug on the initial heading, NOT runway heading. I would imagine that is how CMR does it too. If the heading bug is on runway heading a rolling takoff is fine, you will just be a little embarrased if you have to abort when the bug isn't where it is supposed to be.

 

[asmn]

I don't know if I quite agree with saying anyone coud make this mistake. To say a professional would make a mistake sure we all do, but this case is slightly different. This falls under the careless and wreckless operation of an aircraft category. (this is not meant to be flame bait merely stating an opinion) Not only did they recognize the signs that they were possibly on the wrong runway, they chose to ignore them according to the CVR. Lack of proper interpretation of airport signs, impropery identifing runway markings, omission or misinterpretation of flight instruments, not having the chart out for taxi or not reading it correctly, believing in gut feeling over that of the flight instruments....the list goes on and on. I'm not a perfect pilot and I make mistakes all the time, and I think 100% of you out there could have made the mistake of taking the wrong runway. However, to not recognize that mistake immediately I don't know.....

They could not check the airport diagram because it didn't show the new location of the threshold of runway 22. Taxiway A closure not notamed and we won't know if it was on the ATIS for months. The notam regarding over a 400 foot displacement south of the 22 threshold was:

LEX 4/22 ASDA 7003 TORA 7003 TODA 7003 LDA 6603 WEF 0608202200

Not the standard LEX 22 New threshold relocated ___ feet SW ___ feet remaining. No temporary construction diagrams were provided or have been yet. The general public has more information about LEX's new layout then pilots. New diagram: (Scroll down)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-28-ntsb-kentucky-crash_x.htm

Lights for 4/22 TDZE REIL CL ots, and runway distance remaining signs, vasi missing, so lack of edge lights as well might not seem inconsistent. New taxiway centerline brings you past numbers on runway for 26. All of above decreased their normal situational awareness and made a different picture than what they'd seen many times before.

Wrong heading? Should have been checked. I'd like to think that I look everytime but can't honestly be sure. Stopping and asking about something that looked odd is an option too. The list of irregularities in LEX construction and notification of pilots goes on and on and that is only what we know so far. Careless and wreckless operation? We'll determine this when the investigation is over.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Hey ATR you said the magic word -- abort. I remember all three of the aborts that I've ever called (plus one single pilot in a King Air). I think another human factors issue in this accident needs to focus on aborted takeoffs. (NTSB are you listening?)

At some point on that takeoff, either the PNF Captain or the PF FO realized that there was a problem. I gotta think when they crossed the actual Rwy 22 they knew what was up. Facing the choice of ending up in the grass by aborting, or attempting to fly and maybe getting away with the mistake, they chose to fly. I think we ALL understand that scenario, don't we?

There needs to be a whole new discussion about this if future safety can be served. We feel ok if we abort for engine failure, birds on the runway, blown tire, etc. But we gotta reach deep and ask how many of us would have aborted that takeoff as a result of us using the wrong runway, and ending up in the grass. I hope the NTSB goes into this.

 

[CatYaaak]

Whether it stands up or not, the pay is definitely an issue that affects safety. Pilots who have to live on below-poverty level pay, and work till they are zombies will be of deteriorated mental states. Even in ideal circumstances there are things going on in a regional pilots head that are not flight related. Don't pull out the "a professional will block it out" argument. There is simply no excuse that they have to live like they do...all for some tightwads desire to save $3 on a ticket.
The airline passengers haven't the mental ability to grasp all the issues and consequences of a situation like this. And it is a grisly reminder to all you kids out there who brag about how "easy" the job is. Pull your heads out of your rear end and THINK about your job's consequences more seriously.

From the soapbox,

Terry

You know what Terry?....that stuff you're talking about?....a professional pilot will block it out. While they're flying.

The "businessman/lawyer/doctor" pilot living FAR above the average income level yet takes off in their Trinidad or Baron stressing-out about their worldly problems drill holes with great frequency, and their insurance rates reflect this.

Plenty of highly-paid Legacy pilots also splashed even during the Gravy Train days. Their ability to buy 3 houses and 2 boats while paying alimony didn't make a difference.

Airline passengers have NO moral obligation to try and grasp your "issues"...their obligation is to follow the crew's instructions once they board the aircraft. That's it. YOU are the one who's going to be held to the higher standard because you....to them....are part of the Company they're trusting will do what you say you'll do; operate to the highest level of safety regardless. The contract your pilot group negotiated with the Company is YOUR contract, not theirs, and they didn't sit around the negotiating table.

And why would you hold the pax in such low regard? You sound bitter. I commute and repo on the airlines literally around the world, and for the life of me I've never heard any passengers discussing the pilots' salaries, lives, how easy it is to fly, etc. etc. This may be hard for you to believe, but they talk about us as much as you talk about the shuttle bus driver on the way to the hotel.

Emergency room doctors work long hectic nights for little $$ while deep in debt after paying years of dues under less-than-perfect conditions and equipment. If one mistakedly cuts out the liver of your loved one with fatal results instead of just removing the spleen that ruptured in the car crash, will you say "Doctor, that's ok I didnt understand your personal issues"?

There are bigger issues in the world than money that will most likely bring stress into anyone's career. Burned out to the point safety is affected?....quit. That's your moral obligation to the pax.