APA's response to AA's union busting tactics

[PSL]

Reference the comment about President Bush ordering the pilots to return to work ...

My memory of the process during Section 6 is ... if the pilots strike President Bush can (and probably will) order the pilots to return to work for 30 days. If terms can not be reached and the pilots choose to walk out (again), the only avenue left to legally compel them to return to work is a forced settlement imposed by Congress. I can't remember an instance where negotiations reached an imposed settlement, not withstanding the current contract imposed on the FAA Controllers.

From what I have been told the FAA Controller Contract is not a done deal by any means. I believe there is 'FAA CONTROLLER CONTRACT' language in the most versions of pending legislation that may or may not survive committee resolution.

One thing is for sure ... Arpey (sp?) is in for the ride of his life with the new leadership of APA. My best to all the pilots at AA. You have taken it on the chin only to see your sacrifice looted by the actions of a few who believe they are entitled to the spoils of the perfect storm (9/11, Fuel, Subsequent Terrorist Threats, LCC)

 

[aa73]

Thanks for the support folks. I'd like to mention that any time I need inspiration, I look no further than the extraordinary preparation UAL pilots went through in preparing for their 1985 walkout. I seem to somewhat recall the words written in "Flying the Line Vol 2,"... " "On this day every United pilot will have to make the toughest decision of their life..." and the turnout was truly amazing. I do believe we have that kind of unity today here at APA. To those who say this is all smoke and mirrors and the membership will cave, I can only say you don't truly realize the extent of our determination.

Ready to walk in order to save this profession....
73

 

[PCL_128]

My memory of the process during Section 6 is ... if the pilots strike President Bush can (and probably will) order the pilots to return to work for 30 days. If terms can not be reached and the pilots choose to walk out (again), the only avenue left to legally compel them to return to work is a forced settlement imposed by Congress. I can't remember an instance where negotiations reached an imposed settlement, not withstanding the current contract imposed on the FAA Controllers.

All correct. There has never been a case where Congress has imposed a contract settlement on a pilot group. With the current Democratic controlled congress, there's pretty much zero chance that they would force any settlement on any labor group.

From what I have been told the FAA Controller Contract is not a done deal by any means. I believe there is 'FAA CONTROLLER CONTRACT' language in the most versions of pending legislation that may or may not survive committee resolution.

True. The Democrats are demanding that this legislation go through, but Bush is threatening to veto any bill that contains these provisions. Most of the amendments that the Democrats have offered only require that negotiations resume with NATCA to reach a consensual agreement. You would think that would be pretty reasonable, but apparently Bush isn't happy unless he's keeping the little people down.

 

[FlyingSig]

It was briefed at our LGA domicile meeting that AA pilot suicides are up 600% over normal annual occurrences this year.

AA767AV8TOR

So again, what exactly does this mean? 1 guy killed himself vs. the statistical 0.06 per year or is this actually a problem? And if it is a problem is using it as a political pawn in contract negotiations is not the way to solve this problem.

And if it's not really a problem (as I personally suspect) using this pilot and his family as a political example is a great diservice to this person (unless of course this person volunteered to be the political pawn in which case I question how much his personal problems are really work related).

Negotiations are a game and taking a hard line is a good way to play the game however APA IMHO is taking the unusaul steps of making this way too personal for it's members and this tactic might explode in their faces if goals are not 100% acheived.... what is Llyod going to do when a guy who really does have hidden mental health problems and is really banking on every promise the APA makes really does pull the trigger?

 

[JohnQ]

It was briefed at our LGA domicile meeting that AA pilot suicides are up 600% over normal annual occurrences this year.

AA767AV8TOR

Suicide is the ultimate selfish act and absent a debilitating extraordinary painful and guaranteed TERMINAL illness (not the case in this example) there is simply ZERO excuse to commit suicide and leave your family devastated! To use any case of suicide as "ammo" in a fight with management is simply beyond belief...and it makes the entire union letter (brilliant otherwise) less credible.

 

[PCL_128]

Suicide is the ultimate selfish act and absent a debilitating extraordinary painful and guaranteed TERMINAL illness (not the case in this example) there is simply ZERO excuse to commit suicide and leave your family devastated!

Apparently you've never had a family member or close friend that suffered from depression. Trying to assign logic and common sense to a mental health condition is asinine.

 

[JohnQ]

Apparently you've never had a family member or close friend that suffered from depression. Trying to assign logic and common sense to a mental health condition is asinine.

I have known someone suicidal who committed the act (though not a close family member). My wife works in a county mental health center and sees such patients all the time...and there is no excuse for suicide.

That does not mean that I am unsympathetic to those suffering from depression. It does indeed happen and can be devastating for the person suffering from it as well as their family. Overcoming, or perhaps better stated, coping with and coming to terms with, depression can be difficult and lengthy for both patient and family. But I know that it can be done, with a combination of medication, therapy, and the close support of others, both family, church, and friends. I have seen success and failure.

I am truly not making light of suicide...but I still contend that it is an irresponsible contention to put increased suicide rates on the shoulders of greedy management types.

That is the last I will speak of it.

 

[30West]

Gotta run, there's a beer in the vending machine downstairs with my name on it. TC

Damn, I miss the Sherry Front-and-Back!

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

I still contend that it is an irresponsible contention to put increased suicide rates on the shoulders of greedy management types.

Thanks for your support!

Now get back to work! (and don't call in sick)

 

[aa73]

Damn, I miss the Sherry Front-and-Back!

I believe the proper name is "Share Me Front and back"... and yes I miss it too.

 

[Gorilla]

The suicide thing I do believe went a bit too far and will be percieved as over-the-top rhetoric, and badly done at that.

But the fact does remain that mental health issues among pilots right now are at a historically astronomical level. We had a 1 hour class at recurrent training devoted 100% to the Employee assist program, EAP... the folks who deal with alcohol, drug abuse, and mental health. It is a big emphasis item right now. They told us diagnosed depression is at an all-time high, to seek help ASAP, and to recognize that it is a brain chemistry issue. Pilots being supermen to not like to admit to any weakness.

Guys that were borderline pre 9-11 have been pushed over the edge, and are seeking help - which grounds them, of course.

 

[PCL_128]

I attended an ALPA meeting early this year that included a presentation by the head of ALPA Aeromedical, Doctor Don Hudson. He and the rest of his staff keep very close track of the rates of suicide, alcoholism, depression, etc... among air line pilots. He was incredibly concerned as to the rise in rates of these various mental health issues. He said that he's never seen anything like it before. To dismiss the APA's assertions on this issue would be unwise. They aren't bullsh*&ing everyone. They're absolutely right about what's happening among pilots.

 

[AA717driver]

I believe the proper name is "Share Me Front and back"... and yes I miss it too.

Fortunately (for my liver), I had an early departure yesterday and retired early. The pool was fixin' to heat up when we left...

On topic: AMR brought this on themselves. Lucy jerked the football away once too often. All management had to do was hold off on their bonuses for a year or two and they would have had a favorable deal. AMR blew their chance to change the culture at AA.

A comparison I frequently make (too frequently for many) is that in 1988, a TWA DC-9 Capt. made $90/hr. This was the rate negotiated under pressure with Icahn. (Sorry, Frank, he beat you to it. ) It was WAY below industry standard.

Today's AA S80 CA rate is $154/hr. Care to guess what that would be in 1988 dollars? Yeah, $90. So AA, at the top of the legacy pay scale is working for Carl Icahn pay. (Does that give any NW, UA, U or DL people any warm-fuzzies?)

So, yes, it's time to start raising the bar and it just so happens that APA is in the best position of the legacies to do so. TC

 

[Slim]

Not to get too much into politics but wasn't it Clinton who ordered the AMR pilots back to work in 97 but Bush who did nothing to stop the nearly 3 month Comair strike in 2001.

Yes and yes.

At Comair, we didn't expect Bush to intervene. It's ironic, however, that the only Democrat in the Bush cabinet was DOT Secretary Mineta. He did get involved, brought the parties to the table,and an agreement was reached.

It was also Clinton who "influenced" Bob Crandall and AA to accept binding arbitration bringing the 93 F/A strike against AA to a halt after 5 days.

Fly safe and good luck, APA!

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Guys,

APA National is trying to expose AMR’s hard stance on our sick leave over the last three years. It’s nothing more than pilot pushing. It’s wrong and it’s dangerous. Our VP of flight, Captain Mark Hettermann (I use the term Captain very loosely) is absolutely obsessed with trying to reduce our sick leave usage.

This hard stance in turn has forced pilots to now to fly sick and tired. Management has especially taken a hard stance on sick occurrences over 30 days. The policy has affected guys on long-term sick. As you know, the FAA does not allow pilots to fly on anti-depressants. This is probably why we are seeing such an increase in pilot suicide rates.

For all of you that don’t like what APA had to say in the letter about the suicide rate, what do you want us to do -- hide it?

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

A comparison I frequently make (too frequently for many) is that in 1988, a TWA DC-9 Capt. made $90/hr. This was the rate negotiated under pressure with Icahn. (Sorry, Frank, he beat you to it. ) It was WAY below industry standard.

Carl is and was a visionary. A true pioneer in the field of airline employee sodomy. I have a small makeshift shrine dedicated to him in my office. After reading your post, I think I am going to go over and light another candle at the shrine, and say a small prayer for executive bonuses, industry consolidation, and employee concessions.

I must say that I am truly impressed by some of the posts here about the management at AMR however. I think Arper may be the real deal. I am going to sneek in to his office when he is napping to comb carefully through his hair to see if there is a "666" anywhere under his hair.

I have high hopes.

 

[aa73]

Today's AA S80 CA rate is $154/hr.

$158.88/hr, effective 5/1/07...$161/hr eff 5/1/08. but I like the way you think, selling it short!

73

 

[AA717driver]

$158.88/hr, effective 5/1/07...$161/hr eff 5/1/08. but I like the way you think, selling it short!

73

Sorry, I haven't been keeping up on CA pay rates... TC

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Not to get too much into politics but wasn't it Clinton who ordered the AMR pilots back to work in 97 but Bush who did nothing to stop the nearly 3 month Comair strike in 2001.

Just to give everyone a little history clarification, Clinton "ordered" the PEB, but the fact was APA President Jim Sovich, (a worthless, junior pilot sodomizing P.O.S.), ASKED Clinton for the PEB.
He was witnessed calling Clinton's Chief of Staff ,Bruce Lindsey, at the beginning of the strike, speeding dialing as a matter of fact.
How else could a midnight strike be ended in 20 minutes?

That night of the strike in 1996, APA was as unified as it could get. Sovich gutted our momentum and brought us a TA that gave up the RJ's (f-ing the entire industry) and kept a 7 year B-Scale (3 or none was the standard at the time).

We will get a PEB for sure this time with Bush, but everyone will stand fast and be ready for it this time.

 

[magrs]

When do you feel a contract will be reached?

I know it is amendable in May 2008, but are we looking at 2010 before we see how unfied APA is?