APA's Prez Throws Down on Management

[stlflyguy]

Hangin' On,

You sure got that right. These guys are fighting the last war which is over and done. Did guys get screwed in Supp CC – Yes! Did some make out pretty good – Yes! Personally, I’m an AA native who had almost 10 years on the property at the time of the acquisition and I still lost over 600 numbers and a left seat position.

The TWA deal was a bad purchase made worse by the events of 911. Problem is, it’s over, done, and past. With the multitude of issues confronting us, these upcoming negotiations will be perhaps our most complex yet.

AMR is aiming for our retirement, productivity, quality of life, and pay. Due to the recent screw ups by our illustrious management, we have a real opportunity to capitalize on our standard of living. We achieve success only by coming together – all of us. There are institutional issues involved here; hopefully, success in our contract transcends to the others.

If management is successful in their divide and conquer strategy, you can count on the continued downward spiral on this profession.

We must look forward and not behind!

AA767AV8TOR

You lost 600 numbers but gained a net of 130 aircraft. Assuming six crews per aircraft (correct me if I'm wrong--and I'm sure you will) that's 1560 crewmembers required to staff those aircraft that came from TWA. Yet there are approximately 400--maybe less--TWA crewmembers still on the property.

You say you lost a left seat position. Great. Did you lose a job? Ask any furloughed '89 (yes, senior in date of hire to you) TWA pilot what he was doing at the time of the transaction. Answer: flying as Captain. Tell me your loss is greater than his. Tell me what other domiciles have Captains flying as F/O's (find the CAFO letter at the APA).

You say the only way the AA pilots can achieve success is by "coming together." How do you do that when you're willing to sell out the next guy for your advantage? Try to tell me that your group of pilots hasn't allowed the company to divide the ranks. The fact is management HAS been successful in the division of the ranks and the APA has allowed it to happen.

Supp CC will be revisited in one way, shape, or form. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but I'd guess within the next few years.

stlflyguy

 

[AAflyer]

I agree, the TWA guys that you're flying with are (for the most part) a great bunch of pilots. But they're a fraction of what APA integrated into the list. Many have retired. The MAJORITY of TWA pilots aren't on the AA property and will more than likely have a hard time "forgetting" what's been done to them.

I'll walk the picket line with you, but I'll be doing it with the same interest you had of integrating me onto your list. I have twenty-two years left as well and was hired in '96.

What do I expect you'll do? You'll sell out the furloughees to gain what's best for yourself. Previous iterations of AA pilots have sold out the future so what's to stop this group?

Pensions are a pipe dream. Cash out what you can and rest in peace that you're in control of the funding and not the company.

It's very hard to unite against something when the group is hardly united to begin with.

stlflyguy

Couldn't agree more with you on many aspects. Pensions are not as vulnerable as they appear. The A fund is 80% funded and doing very well. Managements funds have not had anything contributed to it in over decade because it funds itself, It would take a 2 Billion dollar payment to bring ours i line with that. I see what you are saying with respect to pensions, however AA never let them sink as much has UAL,NWA, or DAL. Fed Ex, UPS, and CAL continue to keep theirs (CAL has frozen their A fund).

As for selling out the furloughs, I know AMR will most likely use them as hostages, the question will be what and how we will approach that. I would not vote on anything that sacrifices you any longer, I know many that would not. Would the senior few sell you and I out. You bet, in fact that small group would do it any airline from Usairways, to UAL.

There is a large discord here due to the recent events and the direction of where APA wanted to go, I hope we can all collectively pull together and produce something to turn this around.

I admire your comments and apologize again for the treatment you received. I can see and understand why some would hope we fail, or strike so they could proudly cross the picket line. I also see the benefit it turning this around, and getting you back on board. I am a couple years younger and hired on a couple years after you when we started our hiring boom.

I hope that we ALL (in this industry) have had enough and will not allow further degradation to our career (or job at this point). Only time will tell.

I like the tone Hunter has taken, it was a shock, however the proof is in the pudding. Time will tell if he is serious or beating his chest.

Regards,
AA

 

[Big Slick]

I have several friends who fly for Southwest or JetBlue who say stuff like "9-11 is in the past. Let's just forget about it and move on." I also hear non-furloughed AA folks on here saying the same thing. It all sounds reasonable if you were not personally affected.

If, however, you have been furloughed for 5 years, it's a little bit harder to "just get over it." I am a Native American too. I can, however, relate to the TWA guys because I literally feel their pain.

However, this is just human nature. I have done a lot of charity work. Most people who live in comfortable, safe suburban neighborhoods don't spend a lot of time thinking about less fortunate people. Mostly, folks just care about themselves and their own issues.

The problem here is that we are all in the same union. A union which, supposedly, is representing all of us. I get the feeling that the union cares more about protecting the old guys and their retirements than anything else. They certainly don't want to here about ex-TWA guys or furloughees.

My .02.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

You lost 600 numbers but gained a net of 130 aircraft. Assuming six crews per aircraft (correct me if I'm wrong--and I'm sure you will) that's 1560 crewmembers required to staff those aircraft that came from TWA. Yet there are approximately 400--maybe less--TWA crewmembers still on the property.

You say you lost a left seat position. Great. Did you lose a job? Ask any furloughed '89 (yes, senior in date of hire to you) TWA pilot what he was doing at the time of the transaction. Answer: flying as Captain. Tell me your loss is greater than his. Tell me what other domiciles have Captains flying as F/O's (find the CAFO letter at the APA).

You say the only way the AA pilots can achieve success is by "coming together." How do you do that when you're willing to sell out the next guy for your advantage? Try to tell me that your group of pilots hasn't allowed the company to divide the ranks. The fact is management HAS been successful in the division of the ranks and the APA has allowed it to happen.

Supp CC will be revisited in one way, shape, or form. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but I'd guess within the next few years.

stlflyguy

Stlflyguy,

Fleet count as of Aug 2000 (before the T-way acquisition) was 718 total aircraft and we had 3011 total lines. Fleet count as of Aug 2006 was 702 total aircraft and 2745 total lines. By my count we now have 16 fewer jets and 266 fewer lines now than before T-way was acquired. From a news article around that time: “The pilots of the APA took a position that the TWA pilots could not get something for nothing. Namely, job security and retirement benefits without giving up something -- seniority. The ALPA pilots felt they deserved a more fair distribution within the APA seniority list.”

Like I said, even with 10 years on the property, I still lost over 600 numbers. Just about every senior 76 F/O I fly with lost his/her Captain’s seat in the aftermath of the acquisition and 911. Overall, the deal cost AMR nearly $750 million plus almost $3.5 billion in aircraft leases out of which we got a declining STL hub. Now we find ourselves laden with almost $20 billion of total debt. Total lines out of STL in Apr 2002 were 548 and now have shrunk to 274 as of Aug 2006.

How do you figure that AA gained a net total of 130 aircraft? Did you forget we parked a bunch of F-100’s soon after 911? Problem is that AMR has a long history of buying airlines and then dismantling them so as to eliminate competition. 911 also altered the landscape. If 911 never happened, who truly knows how successful the acquisition would have been. The net result is very few Captain positions are usually created in any merger/acquisitions with AMR and none were created for the natives in this T-way chaos.

Overall, Supp CC protected T-way Captain jobs but did nothing to protect Captain slots on our side of the fence. We also have former T-way flying left seat on our most senior 767 positions DFW to HNL – hardy the screw job you allude to. Do you really want to reopen the Supp CC? Truth is, the average native got nothing (read no advantage) out of the deal and the courts may look very unfavorably at that ugly truth. At least some former T-way pilots were able to get something out of this mess.

Trouble is Stlflyguy, you need to move on. Redirect your bitterness at those who deserve it like the hoseheads over at Centerport that are stuffing their pockets with millions off our hard fought concessions. Do you realize the top 1000 managers seek to reap almost $200 million in bonuses next April if the stock stays in the $20 dollar range? Do you realize that our pay is back at 1994 levels even though inflation has taken almost a 25% chunk off the purchasing power? Our VP of Flight (who doesn’t even fly anymore) got a $800,000 - $900,000 bonus last April while we have pilots on the street, others that are going through bankruptcy, and divorce. Who’s the enemy here? Be mad at Don Carty – he occasionally posts here. We had to dismantle practically everything he did here.

We have Section 6 staring us in the face now and we have to get some unity or else face another fiasco like contract 2003. Management is seeking to lock in the pay cuts gained in 2003 plus they want productivity. Only way we beat that is by staying united. I hope we come out of the next section 6 with a job for you that is worth a crap.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Hangin' On]

I have several friends who fly for Southwest or JetBlue who say stuff like "9-11 is in the past. Let's just forget about it and move on." I also hear non-furloughed AA folks on here saying the same thing. It all sounds reasonable if you were not personally affected.

If, however, you have been furloughed for 5 years, it's a little bit harder to "just get over it." I am a Native American too. I can, however, relate to the TWA guys because I literally feel their pain.

However, this is just human nature. I have done a lot of charity work. Most people who live in comfortable, safe suburban neighborhoods don't spend a lot of time thinking about less fortunate people. Mostly, folks just care about themselves and their own issues.

The problem here is that we are all in the same union. A union which, supposedly, is representing all of us. I get the feeling that the union cares more about protecting the old guys and their retirements than anything else. They certainly don't want to here about ex-TWA guys or furloughees.

My .02.

Big Slick,

I sure hope you are not comparing 9-11 to being furloughed...a bit of apples and oranges, don't you think?

You are absolutely right about APA looking out for the top 10% or so. One look at our reserve system proves that! They get "pensionitits" and are willing to sell out anyone or anything to get their $$$. The majority of the folks I run into--natives and TWA-ers--want everyone back on the property. Anyone who doesn't is just a bitter old fart with 5 ex-wives who wonders why his "do not pair with" list is so long.

AAflyer is right--we need to get together on this next section 6 or the job won't be worth coming back to. At any carrier! Seen UAL's narrowbody work rules? Yikes, they have none!! The bar needs to start going back up.

I look forward to flying the line with all of you sometime soon. Hopefully I will have the opportunity to buy you a beverage.

:beer:

 

[stlflyguy]

Stlflyguy,

Fleet count as of Aug 2000 (before the T-way acquisition) was 718 total aircraft and we had 3011 total lines. Fleet count as of Aug 2006 was 702 total aircraft and 2745 total lines. By my count we now have 16 fewer jets and 266 fewer lines now than before T-way was acquired. From a news article around that time: “The pilots of the APA took a position that the TWA pilots could not get something for nothing. Namely, job security and retirement benefits without giving up something -- seniority. The ALPA pilots felt they deserved a more fair distribution within the APA seniority list.”

Like I said, even with 10 years on the property, I still lost over 600 numbers. Just about every senior 76 F/O I fly with lost his/her Captain’s seat in the aftermath of the acquisition and 911. Overall, the deal cost AMR nearly $750 million plus almost $3.5 billion in aircraft leases out of which we got a declining STL hub. Now we find ourselves laden with almost $20 billion of total debt. Total lines out of STL in Apr 2002 were 548 and now have shrunk to 274 as of Aug 2006.

How do you figure that AA gained a net total of 130 aircraft? Did you forget we parked a bunch of F-100’s soon after 911? Problem is that AMR has a long history of buying airlines and then dismantling them so as to eliminate competition. 911 also altered the landscape. If 911 never happened, who truly knows how successful the acquisition would have been. The net result is very few Captain positions are usually created in any merger/acquisitions with AMR and none were created for the natives in this T-way chaos.

Overall, Supp CC protected T-way Captain jobs but did nothing to protect Captain slots on our side of the fence. We also have former T-way flying left seat on our most senior 767 positions DFW to HNL – hardy the screw job you allude to. Do you really want to reopen the Supp CC? Truth is, the average native got nothing (read no advantage) out of the deal and the courts may look very unfavorably at that ugly truth. At least some former T-way pilots were able to get something out of this mess.

Trouble is Stlflyguy, you need to move on. Redirect your bitterness at those who deserve it like the hoseheads over at Centerport that are stuffing their pockets with millions off our hard fought concessions. Do you realize the top 1000 managers seek to reap almost $200 million in bonuses next April if the stock stays in the $20 dollar range? Do you realize that our pay is back at 1994 levels even though inflation has taken almost a 25% chunk off the purchasing power? Our VP of Flight (who doesn’t even fly anymore) got a $800,000 - $900,000 bonus last April while we have pilots on the street, others that are going through bankruptcy, and divorce. Who’s the enemy here? Be mad at Don Carty – he occasionally posts here. We had to dismantle practically everything he did here.

We have Section 6 staring us in the face now and we have to get some unity or else face another fiasco like contract 2003. Management is seeking to lock in the pay cuts gained in 2003 plus they want productivity. Only way we beat that is by staying united. I hope we come out of the next section 6 with a job for you that is worth a crap.

AA767AV8TOR

The net total aircraft was figured on TWA airframes alone. From memory: there were 188 aircraft at the time of the sale. The DC9's were going away. Then we watched AMR make the (in my opinion) STUPID decision to do away with the 717. A common type rating that would have solved APA's looming 100 seat aircraft problem. When you get to the end numbers of TWA airframes, AMR integrated 103 -80s and 27 757's. The 757's we knew would fade away because they had the Pratt and Whitney engines.

Now AMR has essentially given more lift to the competition (Delta).

So that's the 130 number I came up with.

The reduction in the Fokker's is out of anyone's control. I'm glad our aircraft could save your jobs.

While you're at it, please provide the NUMBER of TWA pilots flying the DFW-HNL route. Big deal: ONE ROUTE.

As for your 600 numbers, I don't understand how you come up with that. Perhaps INITIALLY you lost 600 numbers. But with only perhaps 400 TWA guys still on the list the number senior to you couldn't POSSIBLY be 600. Fire up that solar powered abacus and let me know how you came up with that.

You're right: the average native received nothing in the transaction, unless you count the job of a TWA pilot. The average native at least got that much.

stlflyguy

 

[Hangin' On]

The net total aircraft was figured on TWA airframes alone. From memory: there were 188 aircraft at the time of the sale. The DC9's were going away. Then we watched AMR make the (in my opinion) STUPID decision to do away with the 717. A common type rating that would have solved APA's looming 100 seat aircraft problem. When you get to the end numbers of TWA airframes, AMR integrated 103 -80s and 27 757's. The 757's we knew would fade away because they had the Pratt and Whitney engines.

Now AMR has essentially given more lift to the competition (Delta).

So that's the 130 number I came up with.

The reduction in the Fokker's is out of anyone's control. I'm glad our aircraft could save your jobs.

While you're at it, please provide the NUMBER of TWA pilots flying the DFW-HNL route. Big deal: ONE ROUTE.

As for your 600 numbers, I don't understand how you come up with that. Perhaps INITIALLY you lost 600 numbers. But with only perhaps 400 TWA guys still on the list the number senior to you couldn't POSSIBLY be 600. Fire up that solar powered abacus and let me know how you came up with that.

You're right: the average native received nothing in the transaction, unless you count the job of a TWA pilot. The average native at least got that much.

stlflyguy

stlflyguy,

It seems we all agree on the major points--AMR management made some stupid moves after the unprecedented "perfect storm" of normal downcycle/9-11/Iraq/Katrina/Rita/etc nightmare that the industry has been subjected to. The list of blunders is too long to list.

I'm not going to say I feel your pain because I have been fortunate enough to keep my job. I am truly sorry you lost yours and I think the industry lost a proud part of its history now that TWA is gone.

That being said, I think we, the junior/furloughed line pilots, need to quit blaming each other and playing into management's hands by the infighting. I'm not saying the details are not important, but they are in the past and that is kinda like runway behind you in the big scheme of things.


UPS + 1% for everybody!!

 

[stlflyguy]

stlflyguy,

It seems we all agree on the major points--AMR management made some stupid moves after the unprecedented "perfect storm" of normal downcycle/9-11/Iraq/Katrina/Rita/etc nightmare that the industry has been subjected to. The list of blunders is too long to list.

I think what we are all trying to get to is we, the junior/furloughed line pilots, need to quit blaming each other and playing into management's hands by the infighting. I'm not saying the details are not important, but they are in the past and that is kinda like runway behind you in the big scheme of things.

UPS + 1% for everybody!!

Understood and to an extent, agreed.

Runway behind you is easy to come to grips with; seeing lives ruined due to job loss isn't. Sure, people recover and move on.

I'll be able to move on when the ALPA suit is settled. If that fails, then I'll accept the fact that all avenues have been exhausted.

For me--as the picture looks now--my best economic picture looks to hold on as I'll come back with at least 8th year pay and a reserved Captain's slot in STL if the natives haven't filled the vacancies before I can get to it. And that's the very reason I expect the APA (read: "French Army") to bargain away furlough rights so that the company doesn't have to pay such high rates as recalls happen.

Time will tell.

stlflyguy

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

The net total aircraft was figured on TWA airframes alone. From memory: there were 188 aircraft at the time of the sale. The DC9's were going away. Then we watched AMR make the (in my opinion) STUPID decision to do away with the 717. A common type rating that would have solved APA's looming 100 seat aircraft problem. When you get to the end numbers of TWA airframes, AMR integrated 103 -80s and 27 757's. The 757's we knew would fade away because they had the Pratt and Whitney engines.

Now AMR has essentially given more lift to the competition (Delta).

So that's the 130 number I came up with.

The reduction in the Fokker's is out of anyone's control. I'm glad our aircraft could save your jobs.

While you're at it, please provide the NUMBER of TWA pilots flying the DFW-HNL route. Big deal: ONE ROUTE.

As for your 600 numbers, I don't understand how you come up with that. Perhaps INITIALLY you lost 600 numbers. But with only perhaps 400 TWA guys still on the list the number senior to you couldn't POSSIBLY be 600. Fire up that solar powered abacus and let me know how you came up with that.

You're right: the average native received nothing in the transaction, unless you count the job of a TWA pilot. The average native at least got that much.

stlflyguy

Stlflyguy,

You have to compare apples to apples. Take a look at AMR before and after the acquisition. Spin the numbers any way you want. Truth is we are now a smaller airline than before T-way was acquired. Those are the facts not conjuncture. How can you say you somehow saved jobs when we are smaller now than before we bought TWA. Would AMR have parked the 100’s without the acquisition? Who knows – that’s pure conjecture. I could go on to make the alternative argument that the T-way pilots on the property have stolen native jobs.

In any seniority merger there are winners and losers. There are also career expectations to consider. I know back in my ’91 AA new hire class, I had former T-way pilots that were already bailing TWA back then. How many do you think were bailing AA for TWA in the 90’s? Probably not too many. TWA was a shell of its former self in the 90’s. The point I make about former T-way flying DFW –HNL, is that it was our most senior trip out of the whole system and guess who is flying it? Big deal – yes indeed. There is also former T-way flying a lot of our old Caribbean routes.

As for the 600 numbers, those were initial numbers. Of course pilots retire. The hard pill to swallow was after pounding the pavement for AA for 10 years and thousands of hours, I still lost over 600 numbers to pilots coming over from a bankrupt carrier. Am I unhappy with the former T-way guys? No, they were just trying to get the best deal for themselves. APA is/was the major screw up. Our union is just not very good at negotiation and most of the time they are only concerned with the top 1/3 of the seniority list. That has got to change.

Stlflyguy, we need to come together if you want to get anywhere in this profession. Go to acquisition/merger therapy if you must. Management loves guys like you. You make their job easier and get them better contracts. From your bitterness, I am sure you are part of the lawsuit against us. I wish you success if you can somehow prove how natives got a better deal than the former T-way. You can keep living in the past. I, for one, want to look ahead.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[stlflyguy]

Stlflyguy,

You have to compare apples to apples. Take a look at AMR before and after the acquisition. Spin the numbers any way you want. Truth is we are now a smaller airline than before T-way was acquired. Those are the facts not conjuncture. How can you say you somehow saved jobs when we are smaller now than before we bought TWA. Would AMR have parked the 100’s without the acquisition? Who knows – that’s pure conjecture. I could go on to make the alternative argument that the T-way pilots on the property have stolen native jobs.

In any seniority merger there are winners and losers. There are also career expectations to consider. I know back in my ’91 AA new hire class, I had former T-way pilots that were already bailing TWA back then. How many do you think were bailing AA for TWA in the 90’s? Probably not too many. TWA was a shell of its former self in the 90’s. The point I make about former T-way flying DFW –HNL, is that it was our most senior trip out of the whole system and guess who is flying it? Big deal – yes indeed. There is also former T-way flying a lot of our old Caribbean routes.

As for the 600 numbers, those were initial numbers. Of course pilots retire. The hard pill to swallow was after pounding the pavement for AA for 10 years and thousands of hours, I still lost over 600 numbers to pilots coming over from a bankrupt carrier. Am I unhappy with the former T-way guys? No, they were just trying to get the best deal for themselves. APA is/was the major screw up. Our union is just not very good at negotiation and most of the time they are only concerned with the top 1/3 of the seniority list. That has got to change.

Stlflyguy, we need to come together if you want to get anywhere in this profession. Go to acquisition/merger therapy if you must. Management loves guys like you. You make their job easier and get them better contracts. From your bitterness, I am sure you are part of the lawsuit against us. I wish you success if you can somehow prove how natives got a better deal than the former T-way. You can keep living in the past. I, for one, want to look ahead.

AA767AV8TOR

To keep things short..

1) Make the argument how TWA pilots have stolen Native jobs.
2) The shrinkage happened after 9/11, the TWA transaction happened prior to that.
3) The "bankrupt carrier" was asked to do just that by AMR management. TWA WAS NOT in bankruptcy prior to AMR showing up.
4) You are correct, having the top 1/3 of your seniority list represented is indeed a problem.
5) Management loves guys like us solely because we were harmed by the very pool of pilots that says we should unite behind them. Does it get any simpler than that? You want us to "come together" in some sort of "battered wife syndrome" because that's about what it comes to. THAT should have been thought of prior to creating the seniority list.

stlflyguy