APAAD regrouping to challenge age 60

[Andy]

This is from YOUR source:

In 1990, the FAA contracted with Hilton Systems,
Incorporated, for a study of accident rates, flying experience, and age. Accident rates for
the period 1976 through 1988 were analyzed for pilots holding Class 1, 2, or 3 medical
certificates and operating under Parts 91, 121, or 135. Kay, Hillman, Hyland, Voros,
Harris and Deimler (1994) reported "… no hint of an increase in accident rate for pilots

of scheduled air carriers as they neared the age of 60”​

You need to read deeper. The CAMI reports point out the flawed logic in the Hilton Systems study.

 

[Andy]

Using these premises it then becomes logical that they could continue to "nap in cruise" for at least five more years without consequence!

Yes. I'm hoping to die peacfully in my sleep, like my uncle. I'd hate to be awake and die in an aircraft accident like his passengers.

 

[SOVT]

Boy, you guys must be a real joy to fly with.

Personally I don't give a damm if they raise the age or not, but on second thought I'd prefer thay leave it at 60 so I wouldn't have to fly with the self serving twits that seem to dominate this board.

Just out of curiosity do you guys have the guts to express these sentiments to the older Captains you fly with? I think not.

What a bunch of loser's

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Sovt

SOVT, some 57/67 operators fire people for having a position. I know of operators like that who's pilots move up the list monthly by the last five guys fired every month. Getting to captain is just a matter of how long you can keep your mouth shut and not get violated.

But as you said lets just keep age 60 and can this whole conversation.

 

[SOVT]

SOVT, some 57/67 operators fire people for having a position. I know of operators like that who's pilots move up the list monthly by the last five guys fired every month. Getting to captain is just a matter of how long you can keep your mouth shut and not get violated.

But as you said lets just keep age 60 and can this whole conversation.

As I said, just a bunch of gutless wonders. No fortitude, no conviction just a bunch of whining children hiding behind the skirts of internet anonymity. It is a casual observation the worst of these guys are regional kids, Southwest or Southwest wannabees, not the non-union folks you are talking about

 

[VABB]

Continuing ---
​

​

Air Carrier Incident Rates (per 1000 pilots)
Involving Air Carrier Pilots: 1990-1999

FAA statistics show that air carrier pilots aged 60 and over have a superior safety record as compared to other pilot age groups within either Part 121 or Part 135.
[As reported in Chicago Tribune, July 11, 1999.]

​

If that is the case, then why not put two age 60+ guys in the cockpit together?

 

[Andy]

Just out of curiosity do you guys have the guts to express these sentiments to the older Captains you fly with? I think not.

I post all of this on the UAL ALPA webboard where anonyminity is NOT an option. In fact, a certain outspoken United captain who has been quoted in newspapers and posts regularly on this board has even sent e-mails to me. Any United pilot can easily find out my name. I will be more than happy to discuss my opposition to the change when I return to United from mil leave in June 2009. However, I doubt that this issue will register at that time since our contract becomes amenable in 2009.

I've offered up compromise solutions, but I do not get many responses from those who wish to change the rule. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=88857 I'm not going to champion any change; I'm perfectly happy with the status quo.

 

[VABB]

Assuming they raise the retirement age to 65 (which I hope they don't), that would mean a 23 year-old who gets hired hired at GoJets would have a 42 year career with them.

 

[whymeworry?]

The other night, while standing in line at a local eating establishment, the couple behind me made the same order (two buffets) yet they paid a much lower price. When I asked the cashier why, she told me they get a senior citizen discount. They didn't look senior. Nonetheless, I told her, "that's age discrimination."

Both the couple and the cashier looked at me like I was from another planet.

 

[Falconjet]

That will teach you to go eating dinner at 4:30!

FJ

 

[Falconjet]

If/when there is another vote at SWA the turn out will be the same IMO. In this forum you have a very vocal group of guys on the outside looking in and see this as a threat to there being hired at SWA or if there on the inside a threat to there upgrade. Yes if it passes your hire date will be pushed back or your upgrade will be delayed a bit but if you look at whats happening at most of the other airlines it isn't a big hurdle, just a hurdle. Also FWIW Paul has a few good years left and is a good man with a purpose!

If you are a Captain you would be foolish not to vote to extend the option of going to age 65. You never know whats going to happen plus you can always quit at 60 or 55 if you wish or cut back on your flying. We are a growth airline and hearing guys complaining about not being able to upgrade in 6 years, well just ask your buddies at brand "X" how long it takes there! Each airline is different. Even if they went to age 65 (IMO which in inevitable) not every Pilot will want to go to that age, myself included! I also fly with plenty of FO's that spent 20+ years in the military. Do you think they would like to extend it to 65? You bet they do. So to think that with a new vote there will be an overwhelming change of SWAPA direction on this issue is very much mistaken! Again this is only my opinion but we will see when it happens. Onward again to 2007! Go gettum Paul!

Captain Jim: I am on the outside looking in to SW but I am not worried about not getting hired there. I am also a 20 year military retired pilot who didn't get into the 121 gig until age 42.

I am also vehemently opposed to any change in the Age 60 rule.

So its not all about what might be happening at SW.

There are still thousands of guys and gals out there on furlough who will be stabbed right in the back by the over 60 guys if this changes. Just as the industry is trying to turn around and these folks are on the cusp of a recall, and there is Mr Asshat himself, the 37 year United Captain, trying to keep a straight face while crying to the Director of the FAA that he will be forced into poverty if he has to retire at age 60. That man ought to be ashamed.

So should any other pilot who reaped the benefits of having everyone ahead of them retire at age 60 so they could get their shot at an upgrade or recall.

All the junior guys want is for the rules to remain constant throughout the game so that they can have every opportunity the guys ahead of them had.

FJ

 

[Flybynite]

I've offered up compromise solutions, but I do not get many responses from those who wish to change the rule. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=88857 I'm not going to champion any change; I'm perfectly happy with the status quo.

So if everyone agreed with your compromise proposal the rule would change? You have quite a high opinion of yourself. No one has to get your approval.

So for months you whine how change would delay furlough recalls, yet at first chance of recall you pass because you will be junior, at a base you might not want. I'm willing to bet you will be promoting the age change rule about the time you turn 58.

 

[Andy]

So if everyone agreed with your compromise proposal the rule would change? You have quite a high opinion of yourself. No one has to get your approval.

So for months you whine how change would delay furlough recalls, yet at first chance of recall you pass because you will be junior, at a base you might not want. I'm willing to bet you will be promoting the age change rule about the time you turn 58.

Obviously, you're another one who wants to stay in the left seat past 60 and is unwilling to concede that it will never garner enough support.

To answer your question:
No, my compromise has to do with being able to get enough of a support base. I will still oppose any change. But if the pro-change crowd wants enough support to get anything passed, they need to figure out how to get a majority of pilots to favor a change. Please keep the rule in effect until I turn 60 and then do whatever you want.

I took a pass because of the seat lock and LCO rules at United. The equipment that I desire was not available to my seniority number until now. Since I will be on mil leave until June 2009, it doesn't matter which base or how junior I am. I want to avoid that three year seat lock and returning to LCO rules that my senior brothers agreed to.
Are you saying that a change in the rule would NOT result in a delay of recalls? Please let me know how exactly you came up with that conclusion. Or do you think that it's fair for the senior pilots to continue to take from the junior pilots, changing the rules when it suits them without regard to the junior pilots who get screwed by the change?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So if everyone agreed with your compromise proposal the rule would change?

Of course Andy will answer for the rest of this absurd post but the pro change crowd has not entertained any type of compromise. The pro change crowd wants to ram a WINDFALL benefit for themselves down everyones throat and call that fair and right. The pro change crowd is the ones high on themselves, just read any of Paul Emens.

The only compromise I would ever consider other than NOT CHANGING ANYTHING would be one that takes 30 years for this change to go into effect or something to do with all the new ATPs issued after the change. Wanting a fair shake is not being high on myself or proud at all.

The age discrimination is the blantant power grab the near retiring guys are forcing. The fact that an under age 60 pilot must be present in the cockpit with an over 60 guy smacks of hypocrisy and discrimination against those having to carry the water bucket.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

As I said, just a bunch of gutless wonders. No fortitude, no conviction just a bunch of whining children hiding behind the skirts of internet anonymity. It is a casual observation the worst of these guys are regional kids, Southwest or Southwest wannabees, not the non-union folks you are talking about

I have personally spoken to both my Senators and my Congressman's aids concerning this matter and had a continuing dialog that has been very productive in preventing change. I have shown tons of conviction in preventing a change to those I meet in the crew room and on the line.

So SOVT were you a late bloomer and need the extra five years to get a career?