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AOPA article; "The glory days are over"

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Traderd

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
2,073
I am unable to find a link to this column from the June 2006 issue of AOPA Pilot, but thought I'd mention it as the current condition of the airline pilot's profession is being discussed in a somewhat personal and detailed manner in a GA rag. I'm not sure how many here are AOPA members, so I thought I'd pass it along.

It is discussed by Barry Schiff in his regular column, Proficient Pilot. He identifies himself as a retired TWA pilot with 34 years of flying for that airline. He essentially repeats the information noted here with great frequency. "The glory years are gone" Pay is low to start and vertical movement has slowed dramatically. He specifically describes the careers of his two sons, Brian and Paul.

Brian was hired by TWA in 1989, furloughed from American in 2003 after TWA's "assimilation" and flies as a regional captain awaiting recall. His other son Paul was hired by Trans States in 2000, left after about four years and as many domicile changes for United Express where he had three domicile changes in a couple of years. He left the recently after realizing the most he had earned after six years as a commuter pilot (apologies to General Lee) was $30K and that he saw foresaw little potential for a career like his dad had enjoyed with TWA. Mr. Schiff then proceeds to plug his son's new on-line pet store venture but mentions how glad his son is to have a schedule stable enough to meet that special someone.

His son Paul notes that it is easy to get a job at a regional because of attrition. He then noted that the attrition is not due to a move to the majors, but rather due to people leaving the industry.

Mr. Schiff does note that these are anecdotal experiences, but in his discussions with many others in the arena, he can no longer encourage aspiring airline pilots without detailing the current realities concerning the probability of success. He then concludes by noting that flying itself is still rewarding and challenging.

His final quote is "Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a captain for a major airline justify all that must be endured the get there? Perhaps, but surviving long enough to get there is the problem."

So, if any of the GA guys care, he has put the issue to the front in a rag aimed at the other than airline pilot crowd. Maybe the student pilot types will read and be influenced to question; maybe not.
 
Can anyone find the link to the article. Sounds like good reading.
 
Sounds like one son made the poor decision to fly for TWA and will be waiting for a very long time to be recalled. The other was just a loser.
 
Wow, you really are an asshole, aren't you?
 
EMB SKILLS is one of the useless FI posters. He never contributes to any thread and only responds with childish responses with no content. So don't be shocked that he comes off that way. Sorry about hijacking the thread.
 
Don't get mad at me if some shriveled old fart and his loser sons don't like flying anymore. It's not a dream job if you can't work for a good company.
 
Way2Broke said:
EMB SKILLS is one of the useless FI posters. He never contributes to any thread and only responds with childish responses with no content.

You are correct, sir.
 
Barry's Grandchildren

Personally, I could not be happier. FINALLY someone in the aviation newsmedia -- someone who is in a position to influence flight instructors and student pilots -- is telling the real story.

The fact is that the industry has changed dramatically in less than a decade. The vast increase in the size (# of pax) of the so-called "regional" aircraft has dramatically decreased the number of mainline jobs available for recall or newhire.

Attrition frequently comes from the BOTTOM of the seniority list as F/Os wise up and leave the industry. Some pursue the corporate positions that have become a more stable (financially and otherwise) segment of aviation. Some pursue fractionals. Some leave aviation altogether.

Barry's son flew for Trans World Airlines. Likely that was the only airline he'd ever wanted to work for -- following in his fathers footsteps. Was his choice to go to TWA the "wrong" choice?

No. Not at all. No more than the choice of pilots to work for Braniff, Eastern, Pan-Am, USAir, etc. was ever a "bad" choice.

We may find, in a few years, that the choice to go work for JetBlue is considered a mistake. (I personally think they will fade into aviation history by 2010). It is all part of the unfortunate reality we face -- we're married to whatever airline we work for because, regardless of our experience, when we start over, we start at the bottom. Period.

Maybe Barry's article will open the eyes of some flight instructors. Maybe it will begin to open some eyes to the fact that the job still has to be worth the sacrifice. Once the "career" isn't a possibility anymore maybe bargaining power will return.

This decade is ruled by those with Shiny-Jet-Syndrome. It is an affliction not exclusive to aviation but to an entire GENERATION of young-people who demand instant gratification. They aren't willing to pay their dues. They want what they want, and they want it now.

Hopefully the children of the furloughees - Barry's grandchildren - will have a stronger work ethic. They are the profession's only hope.
 
EMB Skillz said:
JOIN ALPA!

The above quote, taken as advice, is concerning.

Regrettably, ALPA leadership (Duane Worthless) has been a total failure. Scope was not held and Regional airlines have now become the outsourced standard. There is no power to strike at this time in this situation which means there is no power in a union.

The only place where there will be power in the future is in an airline like UPS because they have the POWER to strike effectively. A strike at UPS will be honored by all the Teamsters which means the drivers. A strike by the drivers means it will be honored by the pilots. That is power and that translates into $300K per year or more for captains.

Does anyone think a strike by ALPA pilots would be honored by anyone now days? Not a chance and that means ALPA captains pay is on the way down even more. ALPA pilots are as replaceable as the flight attendants.

What is anyone worth? The answer is only determined by the power of your position. Or in other words: You are worth what you can get.

Questions: Ask Mr. Worthless.

The immediate problem: ALPA is in a denial phase instead of acting when the course is clear for long term security.
 
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I haven't seen the article but have read other stuff by Barry Schiff and he seems to be OK. With that said, perhaps the pendulum will swing so far to the one side (low wages) that people will stop applying and then companies will start paying better to attract quality candidates. If pay continues to decline though it could put the PFT places out of business :). Unfortunately by then flying will become so automated that it won't require "real" pilots.
 
EMB Skillz said:
Sounds like one son made the poor decision to fly for TWA and will be waiting for a very long time to be recalled. The other was just a loser.

EMB Skillz is a schizophrenic flamebating S.O.B. and needs to be banned again. He brings the board down and that is his only purpose for existing here. I don't care who he works for or what his thoughts on ALPA are when he vents his own frustrations in the format of a toddler. I seriously pity the poor bastards that have to fly with him.

Do everyone a favor EMB and put yourself out of your misery already. You are mentally unfit.
 
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On another note. This ALPA stuff totally freaks me out and I find the details of the article mentioned very disturbing/interesting. I have no desire to fly for the airlines anymore. How in the world is all this stuff being ALLOWED to happen. Makes me sick. I don't know much, but common sense tells me that the two guys up front of a airliner carrying live human cargo should be paid well. HOW THE HELL ARE THEY NOT EVEN GETTING PAID LIVABLE WAGES?!

What does it tell you when you get rewarded for carrying boxes and punished for carrying humans? What is the world coming to?
 
Yeah, I've got that one figured out. Now let me ask this. Are the airline pilots in other countries having these same issues? If not, then.......well I don't even want to go there.
This airline issue is pathetic. I'm not one to insist that every airline pilot must make 6 figures or anything but I sense that the "real" reasons behind the horrible pay are bad ones that should be dealt with forcefully.
Over and over and over in my head:
HOW THE HELL ARE THEY NOT EVEN GETTING PAID LIVABLE WAGES AS F/Os!?
And the whole GIA thing......WTF?!! (I almost went there!) :puke:

SERIOUS PROBLEM
 
mcjohn said:
What does it tell you when you get rewarded for carrying boxes and punished for carrying humans? What is the world coming to?

People are willing to pay $15.95 to send an ounce of documents to New York overnight, but only $49 to fly their fat 300 pound butt the same route.

And the airlines cater to that!

:( :( :(
 
I think this should be required reading by all potential Flight Academy applicants who buy into the HR marketing of "Going from 0 to the airlines in a year!"

All the Academies have the same hype. If you want to fly for the airlines, the time to get in is NOW! What it should read is "Come spend $80,000+ with us, and we'll land you a First Officer regional job that pays $20,000 a year, and upgrade in as little as 5-10 years, where you'll then be making $50,000!!"

Sad thing is, people would still read it and sign up.
 
This amuses me. Paul was my FO on a couple trips at AirWis. When he told me who his dad was, I asked Paul if he ever kicked his dad in the ass for letting him get into this profession. Paul said his dad had tried to discourage him from pursuing it. I asked why Barry never expressed this in one of his articles, and Paul just shrugged his shoulders. Thanks for finally getting around to it Barry.
 
UndauntedFlyer said:
Scope was not held and Regional airlines have now become the outsourced standard. There is no power to strike at this time in this situation which means there is no power in a union.

The immediate problem: ALPA is in a denial phase instead of acting when the course is clear for long term security.
Amen - but why not stop erosion by allowing Regionals to have some brand scope too?
 
sonicventury said:
This amuses me. Paul was my FO on a couple trips at AirWis. When he told me who his dad was, I asked Paul if he ever kicked his dad in the ass for letting him get into this profession. Paul said his dad had tried to discourage him from pursuing it. I asked why Barry never expressed this in one of his articles, and Paul just shrugged his shoulders. Thanks for finally getting around to it Barry.

The things it takes to get a year and half old lurker out of the woodwork :)
 
BenderGonzales said:
This decade is ruled by those with Shiny-Jet-Syndrome. It is an affliction not exclusive to aviation but to an entire GENERATION of young-people who demand instant gratification. They aren't willing to pay their dues. They want what they want, and they want it now.

Hopefully the children of the furloughees - Barry's grandchildren - will have a stronger work ethic. They are the profession's only hope.

Uhhh, actually ALPA is ruled by a bunch of old dudes that could give a ratts butt about the plight of the younger pilots. FYIGM!

Work ethic has little to do with it. It has mostly to do with deregulation, a lot to do with the declinign power of unions and a good bit to do with ALPAs complete failure to look out for everybody. Not just the few at the top of the list.

Thats not becuase kids today lack work ethic. They are working harder for less if anything.
 
UndauntedFlyer said:
The above quote, taken as advice, is concerning.

Regrettably, ALPA leadership (Duane Worthless) has been a total failure. Scope was not held and Regional airlines have now become the outsourced standard. There is no power to strike at this time in this situation which means there is no power in a union.

The only place where there will be power in the future is in an airline like UPS because they have the POWER to strike effectively. A strike at UPS will be honored by all the Teamsters which means the drivers. A strike by the drivers means it will be honored by the pilots. That is power and that translates into $300K per year or more for captains.

Does anyone think a strike by ALPA pilots would be honored by anyone now days? Not a chance and that means ALPA captains pay is on the way down even more. ALPA pilots are as replaceable as the flight attendants.

What is anyone worth? The answer is only determined by the power of your position. Or in other words: You are worth what you can get.

Questions: Ask Mr. Worthless.

The immediate problem: ALPA is in a denial phase instead of acting when the course is clear for long term security.

I disagree totally. I recall at LEAST two very stern letters from Mr. Woerthless about lasers....:D
 
UndauntedFlyer said:
Does anyone think a strike by ALPA pilots would be honored by anyone now days? Not a chance and that means ALPA captains pay is on the way down even more. ALPA pilots are as replaceable as the flight attendants.

And why would they? when was the last time ALPOA honored any strike but thier own? I seem to recall more than one strike by mechanics, flight attendents or baggage handlers which weren't honored by ALPA, isn't it a 2 way street? If you want somone else to to the tough thing, and go without pay for your fight, don't you have to be willing to do the same for them?
 
UndauntedFlyer said:
Regrettably, ALPA leadership (Duane Worthless) has been a total failure. Scope was not held and Regional airlines have now become the outsourced standard. There is no power to strike at this time in this situation which means there is no power in a union.


Recall the power to strike is made via the NMB. It cannot simply be done because a union wants or needs to... there is a process, so to simply sandbag ALPA is irresponsible and ill informed...

UndauntedFlyer said:
The only place where there will be power in the future is in an airline like UPS because they have the POWER to strike effectively. A strike at UPS will be honored by all the Teamsters which means the drivers. A strike by the drivers means it will be honored by the pilots. That is power and that translates into $300K per year or more for captains.


Why are the labor laws that allow UPS to stike easier than any other Airline?

UndauntedFlyer said:
Does anyone think a strike by ALPA pilots would be honored by anyone now days? Not a chance and that means ALPA captains pay is on the way down even more. ALPA pilots are as replaceable as the flight attendants.


Now days? Why don't you tell us about the good ol days. When was another strike successfully honored?


UndauntedFlyer said:
What is anyone worth? The answer is only determined by the power of your position. Or in other words: You are worth what you can get.

Questions: Ask Mr. Worthless.

The immediate problem: ALPA is in a denial phase instead of acting when the course is clear for long term security.


Acutally I'll ask you....

Where did you get your "Management/Labor/Gov't" relations education anyway? The resident crewroom expert? Some guy you flew with for a month? I mean, you must have come to this understanding somehow.... Are you self taught?
 

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