mcjohn
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Screw my question. I'll just leave it at this:
http://www.clear-and-a-million.com/viewtopic.php?t=2758
http://www.clear-and-a-million.com/viewtopic.php?t=2758
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AOPA article; "The glory days are over"
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User998
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I think this should be required reading by all potential Flight Academy applicants who buy into the HR marketing of "Going from 0 to the airlines in a year!"
All the Academies have the same hype. If you want to fly for the airlines, the time to get in is NOW! What it should read is "Come spend $80,000+ with us, and we'll land you a First Officer regional job that pays $20,000 a year, and upgrade in as little as 5-10 years, where you'll then be making $50,000!!"
Sad thing is, people would still read it and sign up.
All the Academies have the same hype. If you want to fly for the airlines, the time to get in is NOW! What it should read is "Come spend $80,000+ with us, and we'll land you a First Officer regional job that pays $20,000 a year, and upgrade in as little as 5-10 years, where you'll then be making $50,000!!"
Sad thing is, people would still read it and sign up.
sonicventury
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This amuses me. Paul was my FO on a couple trips at AirWis. When he told me who his dad was, I asked Paul if he ever kicked his dad in the ass for letting him get into this profession. Paul said his dad had tried to discourage him from pursuing it. I asked why Barry never expressed this in one of his articles, and Paul just shrugged his shoulders. Thanks for finally getting around to it Barry.
smellthejeta
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cynic
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BenderGonzales said:
Uhhh, actually ALPA is ruled by a bunch of old dudes that could give a ratts butt about the plight of the younger pilots. FYIGM!
Work ethic has little to do with it. It has mostly to do with deregulation, a lot to do with the declinign power of unions and a good bit to do with ALPAs complete failure to look out for everybody. Not just the few at the top of the list.
Thats not becuase kids today lack work ethic. They are working harder for less if anything.
cynic
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Oh yeah. And click on a Users Name once with the left mouse button. Select 'View Public Profile' from the drop down list.
Then click Add EMB Skillz to your Ignore List
He's on my list, so is the crazy peak oil dude and one or two other morons.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/profile.php?do=removelist&userlist=ignore&u=24129
Then click Add EMB Skillz to your Ignore List
He's on my list, so is the crazy peak oil dude and one or two other morons.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/profile.php?do=removelist&userlist=ignore&u=24129
A Squared
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UndauntedFlyer said:
And why would they? when was the last time ALPOA honored any strike but thier own? I seem to recall more than one strike by mechanics, flight attendents or baggage handlers which weren't honored by ALPA, isn't it a 2 way street? If you want somone else to to the tough thing, and go without pay for your fight, don't you have to be willing to do the same for them?
Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
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UndauntedFlyer said:
Recall the power to strike is made via the NMB. It cannot simply be done because a union wants or needs to... there is a process, so to simply sandbag ALPA is irresponsible and ill informed...
UndauntedFlyer said:
Why are the labor laws that allow UPS to stike easier than any other Airline?
UndauntedFlyer said:
Now days? Why don't you tell us about the good ol days. When was another strike successfully honored?
UndauntedFlyer said:
Acutally I'll ask you....
Where did you get your "Management/Labor/Gov't" relations education anyway? The resident crewroom expert? Some guy you flew with for a month? I mean, you must have come to this understanding somehow.... Are you self taught?
UndauntedFlyer
Ease the nose down
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Rez O. Lewshun said:
Any union has the power to strike after all attempts to reach an agreement have failed and they been released to a 30-day cooling off period with still no agreement.
There is no point in a strike for any ALPA PAX carrier because they have no power to be successful in shutting down the airline. This is a result of shortsighted leadership by ALPA that continues today. ALPA leaders like Woerthless are only interested in getting re-elected. To heck with making the tough long term decisions regarding "Scoop," age-60, etc.
There have been successful pilot strikes in the past at Northwest, UAL and others. Success if when the carrier is 90% shut down. That success can not happen now except at UPS and maybe FedEx as well as a hand full of other specialty carriers.
I got my labor training from 38 years of union membership and 30-days of carrying a picket sign. How about you? :beer:
woutlaw
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Article link
In case any AOPA members wanted to read the article.
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2006/prof0606.html
Looks like Schiff isn't available online for non-members.
He closes with:
"I frequently am asked for advice about becoming an airline pilot. The best advice I can offer those determined to endure the rigorous hardships often required is to simultaneously develop a sideline vocation that can be used in case of emergency. A pilot should never get into a position that is totally dependent on income from an airline.
Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a captain for a major airline justify all that must be endured to get there? Perhaps, but surviving long enough to get there is the problem."
Me, I'll be happy to start as a CFI, which will be the second career in my lifetime. No desire at all to fly the line.
In case any AOPA members wanted to read the article.
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2006/prof0606.html
Looks like Schiff isn't available online for non-members.
He closes with:
"I frequently am asked for advice about becoming an airline pilot. The best advice I can offer those determined to endure the rigorous hardships often required is to simultaneously develop a sideline vocation that can be used in case of emergency. A pilot should never get into a position that is totally dependent on income from an airline.
Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a captain for a major airline justify all that must be endured to get there? Perhaps, but surviving long enough to get there is the problem."
Me, I'll be happy to start as a CFI, which will be the second career in my lifetime. No desire at all to fly the line.
cynic
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AOPA probably doesn't care if we post it so long as the article is cited:
Proficient Pilot
The glory days are over
BY BARRY SCHIFF (From AOPA Pilot, June 2006.)
Barry Schiff retired from TWA in 1998 after a 34-year career with the airline.
[SIZE=+2]I[/SIZE] have been agonizing over the topic of this column for a few years, not knowing if I should publicly air my personal thoughts. Not to do so, I finally concluded, would be intellectually dishonest. So at the risk of attracting flak, here goes.
I was hired as a pilot by Trans World Airlines in 1964. This was during the glamour years that began after World War II. Airline salaries were rising, working conditions improved with every contract renewal, and airline pilots earned approval and respect from every quarter. On international flights, airline pilots were treated like royalty.
No one working for Pan American World Airways or TWA during this period could possibly have anticipated the demise of their airlines. These were cultural icons of the twentieth century. At one time, TWA's logo was the second most recognizable in the world (Coca-Cola's was the first).
The death knell for this era sounded on October 24, 1978, when President Jimmy Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act. The merits and demerits of deregulation aside, the long-term result for pilots was etched in stone. There would be an erosion of wages, working conditions, pensions, and job security.
Things got worse after the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Because of the need for additional security, airline pilots are locked in their cockpits behind bulletproof doors and suffer the indignity of coordinating trips to the lavatory with flight attendants.
The glory years are gone.
I could not have been prouder when my son Brian was hired by TWA in 1989. Although conditions had declined since the airlines were deregulated, being an airline pilot was still a great job. He upgraded to captain on the Boeing 727 11 years later. Although thrilled to be in the left seat of a jetliner for a major carrier, he worked harder and earned a smaller salary than I did many years previously.
TWA was assimilated by American Airlines in 2001. During the next two years Brian went from left seat to right seat to the street. He had been furloughed and eventually found a job flying Learjets for a Part 135 operator. He now flies as captain of a Canadair Regional Jet for a commuter carrier.
Like thousands of others who have been furloughed from the majors, he has no idea when he will be recalled. Considering that American is reducing its need for pilots by contractual increases in pilot productivity and outsourcing many of its shorter, thinner routes to commuter carriers, it could be many years before Brian again sees an American Airlines' flight deck. Another of my sons, Paul, began to satisfy his desire to become an airline pilot in 2000 when he was hired by Trans States Airline, a company that operated TWExpress, US Airways Express, and AmericanConnection. Paul bounced between all three and discovered after 9/11 that he was not making headway in accruing seniority.
After four domicile changes, he opted to leave Trans States and obtain a more promising position with United Express. He worked there for three years, during which he had as many changes in domicile, and discovered that the most he had earned after six years as a commuter pilot was less than $30,000 per year. He again foresaw little potential for a career like I had and with great mental anguish opted to change professions.
Paul recently started a pet-supply company, gets to spend every night in his own bed, and has an opportunity to develop a social life. As an airline pilot gone from home 21 days a month, he had little opportunity to meet someone with whom he might like to share a future. When he did meet someone, he had neither the time nor the money for dating.
Paul says, "It is relatively easy to get a job with a commuter carrier, but not because these carriers are losing pilots to the majors; they are not. The attrition rate at the regional level is high because so many pilots reach their limits of endurance and quit. They find it too difficult to live on starvation wages [especially those with families]. There usually was nothing left in my wallet after shelling out for commuting and crash-pad expenses."
Although these are anecdotal experiences, my frank and personal discussions with numerous other airline pilots corroborate my feelings about the state of the airline industry. I can no longer encourage aspiring airline pilots without first ensuring that they understand the treacherous and daunting journeys typically required to reach for such lofty goals.
Do not misunderstand. Coping with the challenges of weather, communing with nature in a way that only pilots can appreciate, and maneuvering a sophisticated aircraft from one place on Earth to another remains a stimulating and gratifying endeavor (although I think it was more fun with less automation). It is the price one must pay to get there that is so discouraging.
I frequently am asked for advice about becoming an airline pilot. The best advice I can offer those determined to endure the rigorous hardships often required is to simultaneously develop a sideline vocation that can be used in case of emergency. A pilot should never get into a position that is totally dependent on income from an airline.
Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a captain for a major airline justify all that must be endured to get there? Perhaps, but surviving long enough to get there is the problem.
Visit the author's Web site.
The magazine is in the pilot's lounge of every FBO anyway.
Proficient Pilot
The glory days are over
BY BARRY SCHIFF (From AOPA Pilot, June 2006.)
Barry Schiff retired from TWA in 1998 after a 34-year career with the airline.
[SIZE=+2]I[/SIZE] have been agonizing over the topic of this column for a few years, not knowing if I should publicly air my personal thoughts. Not to do so, I finally concluded, would be intellectually dishonest. So at the risk of attracting flak, here goes.
I was hired as a pilot by Trans World Airlines in 1964. This was during the glamour years that began after World War II. Airline salaries were rising, working conditions improved with every contract renewal, and airline pilots earned approval and respect from every quarter. On international flights, airline pilots were treated like royalty.
No one working for Pan American World Airways or TWA during this period could possibly have anticipated the demise of their airlines. These were cultural icons of the twentieth century. At one time, TWA's logo was the second most recognizable in the world (Coca-Cola's was the first).
The death knell for this era sounded on October 24, 1978, when President Jimmy Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act. The merits and demerits of deregulation aside, the long-term result for pilots was etched in stone. There would be an erosion of wages, working conditions, pensions, and job security.
Things got worse after the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Because of the need for additional security, airline pilots are locked in their cockpits behind bulletproof doors and suffer the indignity of coordinating trips to the lavatory with flight attendants.
The glory years are gone.
I could not have been prouder when my son Brian was hired by TWA in 1989. Although conditions had declined since the airlines were deregulated, being an airline pilot was still a great job. He upgraded to captain on the Boeing 727 11 years later. Although thrilled to be in the left seat of a jetliner for a major carrier, he worked harder and earned a smaller salary than I did many years previously.
TWA was assimilated by American Airlines in 2001. During the next two years Brian went from left seat to right seat to the street. He had been furloughed and eventually found a job flying Learjets for a Part 135 operator. He now flies as captain of a Canadair Regional Jet for a commuter carrier.
Like thousands of others who have been furloughed from the majors, he has no idea when he will be recalled. Considering that American is reducing its need for pilots by contractual increases in pilot productivity and outsourcing many of its shorter, thinner routes to commuter carriers, it could be many years before Brian again sees an American Airlines' flight deck. Another of my sons, Paul, began to satisfy his desire to become an airline pilot in 2000 when he was hired by Trans States Airline, a company that operated TWExpress, US Airways Express, and AmericanConnection. Paul bounced between all three and discovered after 9/11 that he was not making headway in accruing seniority.
After four domicile changes, he opted to leave Trans States and obtain a more promising position with United Express. He worked there for three years, during which he had as many changes in domicile, and discovered that the most he had earned after six years as a commuter pilot was less than $30,000 per year. He again foresaw little potential for a career like I had and with great mental anguish opted to change professions.
Paul recently started a pet-supply company, gets to spend every night in his own bed, and has an opportunity to develop a social life. As an airline pilot gone from home 21 days a month, he had little opportunity to meet someone with whom he might like to share a future. When he did meet someone, he had neither the time nor the money for dating.
Paul says, "It is relatively easy to get a job with a commuter carrier, but not because these carriers are losing pilots to the majors; they are not. The attrition rate at the regional level is high because so many pilots reach their limits of endurance and quit. They find it too difficult to live on starvation wages [especially those with families]. There usually was nothing left in my wallet after shelling out for commuting and crash-pad expenses."
Although these are anecdotal experiences, my frank and personal discussions with numerous other airline pilots corroborate my feelings about the state of the airline industry. I can no longer encourage aspiring airline pilots without first ensuring that they understand the treacherous and daunting journeys typically required to reach for such lofty goals.
Do not misunderstand. Coping with the challenges of weather, communing with nature in a way that only pilots can appreciate, and maneuvering a sophisticated aircraft from one place on Earth to another remains a stimulating and gratifying endeavor (although I think it was more fun with less automation). It is the price one must pay to get there that is so discouraging.
I frequently am asked for advice about becoming an airline pilot. The best advice I can offer those determined to endure the rigorous hardships often required is to simultaneously develop a sideline vocation that can be used in case of emergency. A pilot should never get into a position that is totally dependent on income from an airline.
Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a captain for a major airline justify all that must be endured to get there? Perhaps, but surviving long enough to get there is the problem.
Visit the author's Web site.
The magazine is in the pilot's lounge of every FBO anyway.
BenderGonzales
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CitationLover
Aw, Nuts!
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Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
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UndauntedFlyer said:
Well....that is the kicker.... "they have to be released..." That is pretty political and I am not sure that the union has unilateral control...
UndauntedFlyer said:
Your first sentence is opinion. Your second sentence seems to speak that it is all the unions problem that the RLA and NMB applies to the union.
UndauntedFlyer said:
One of the reasons why those NWA and UAL strikes worked is because while those pilots crippled thier airline the other airlines were doing well. The whole competition thing...
In todays environment, striking can liquidate your BK company....
ALPA, I think could be more effective, but I don't think they can shoulder the blame...
Compared to you, I am rookie..... but I do recognize and respect your tenure...
Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
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sky37d
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- Jul 23, 2003
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- 999
See my note in what are the regionals doing wrong.
The bottom line is when VLJ's start coming on line, people are going to say, I could take off my shoes, stand in line for 2 hours, deal with people who don't give a crap, or I can sign up for a fractional VLJ, and say to heck with the airlines.
I'm betting, and so is an industry, that lots of people will say that, and then the big airlines are going to be a giant sucking sound. Kind of like Freddie Laker, and Laker Express.
The bottom line is when VLJ's start coming on line, people are going to say, I could take off my shoes, stand in line for 2 hours, deal with people who don't give a crap, or I can sign up for a fractional VLJ, and say to heck with the airlines.
I'm betting, and so is an industry, that lots of people will say that, and then the big airlines are going to be a giant sucking sound. Kind of like Freddie Laker, and Laker Express.
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