Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[publisher]

good points

Bobby,

There are many good points in the discussion.... yet.

When I had a 135 and corporate flght department, I had a bunch of guys living in my lobby who wanted to fly for free to build that turbine time on corporate flights.

These guys were flight instructors from Ohio State and the flight schools in our area. Many of these guys had 135 minimums but needed multi turbine. Unfortunately I had a bunch of Aztec drivers who wanted that time too so it was rare that I could use them.

What I am saying is that everyone here is prejudging who these people are and acting like they may not have any experience level at all except what they bought. That is not necessarily the facts.

It took me 1800 total and 575 multi to get 215 of multi turbine. If at that point I had signed with GIA, I would have had 2000+ 800 + and nearly 500 multi turbine. It would have made me pretty employable.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying for free to build time v. P-F-T

Okay, Pub, put me in the "me, too" column. I needed multi turbine, too. Doesn't everyone? When I started preparing for a professional career after several years as a pleasure pilot, I approached a guy I knew who flew a Part 91 Kingair for an oil company. I asked him if I could come along with him and fly to build turbine time. He had others approach him before for the same reason. He knew what I was after and was receptive. I spent many afternoons helping him wash his airplane in return for rides. I went with him once or twice, and logged something like 1.0 (he apologized later for not getting me more hours). I had no expectation of pay. People did that all the time years ago (do they still?). No money changed hands. I don't think anyone would have a qualm about doing that.

Once again, notwithstanding the ethics, pride, worth, quals and accomplishment issues, the big issue is money changing hands in return for time.

I don't know how recent your time is, Pub, but I'd bet another .02 opinion and the first round of Cokes if we ever have a Coke together that your time and an ATP (without the P-F-T hours!) would land you a bunch of interviews these days. With an ATP, you would have had your pick of interviews with those quals twelve years ago.

 

[publisher]

Righto

Bobby,

First of all, I was too busy being president to worry about it. Nevertheless, had I paid the money, it would have made a significant difference on my insurance qualifications.

At many corporate jobs, the insurance company sets the times every bit as much as the corporation. That 500 multi turbine made a big difference for a captain job back then at my company.

The strange thing in light of today's market, literally all my pilots on full time were A&P's. 4 of them IA in addition to
ATP.

Had I been a pilot for a living, I would have paid some money to get the time. It would have got me there a year earlier.

 

[metalleg38]

Newbie, Excuse the Ignorance...

Can someone clarify this subject of PFT for me.
It seems to me that everyone "Pays for Training", weather you do it at an airline run school, a flight Acadamy or a University.

I think someone stated in an earlier post that a "Law Firm" is not going to hire you out of high school( or college for that fact) and then pay for your three years of law school.

If there is an airline out there that would hire you and "Then" put you through all your training at thier expence, wouldn't everyone want to go there??? as opposed to shelling out 10's of thousands of $$$$$$ of your own money.

Not trying to start anything here, just would like some explanation. Thanks in advance!!

ALSO, is there a web site or good book that anyone can recomend for all these abbriviations that are used in aviation.
I thought the sign and computer graphics biz used a lot, Boy was I wrong there.....LOL

 

[TurboS7]

Wake up guys

You pay for trainig at any major airline. The first year you may make 30K max, then the second year you suddenly make 60K to 90K. Wake-up, you just paid a major airline 30K to 60K for your training. Just because 1 year went by are you more valuable to the company? Your warm body is still sitting on the same seat doing exactly what it was doing at 2 months as it is doing after a year. Thank God FE'ing is almost gone or the above statement would be more than correct. Got to go study for a LOFT tomorrow, bye. So if a major made you pay for training but paid you 60 to 70K the first year the result would be the same. If the person has the bucks go for it, but like I said earlier they will miss the roses along the way.

 

[norskman2]

Metalleg,

Try these abbreviation glossaries ASAP.

http://www.gps.tc.faa.gov/glossary.html
http://www.aopa.ch/xgloss.htm

As for everyone's favorite abbreviation - PFT - well, you've clearly stepped into the middle of a minefield here. To overly simplify, PFT is when a pilot pays a company for training that is REQUIRED for a flying job. This does not cover ratings and other training that is transferrable to other jobs, but training that is specific to the company and position being hired into.

 

[Ty Webb]

Publisher:

You spend an awful lot of time defending Gulfstream. It is obvious to most people that the whole idea of buying time in a required crewmember seat is repugnant, for a variety of reasons, including:

1) Gulfstream takes a required crewmember seat, and rents it out by the hour, thus eliminating what would be an entry-level position.


2) The traveling public, buying a seat on a Part 121 carrier in scheduled service, deserves to have crewmembers selected on their qualifications, not by having rented out the pilot seat. You can say that "they have passed an F/O checkride" but simply manipulating the controls to perform the required tasks does not mean they have the experience to perform the duties.

3) The vast majority of Gulfstream's F/O's are smelly foreign nationals here on educational visas, yet here they are, sitting in a required crewmember seat! Sure, Gulfscab also has a few panicky rotorheads and the occaisional mindless, drooling half-wit, but the vast majority of GIA "pilots" I have come into contact with have been an odd collection of door-prizes.

Last- it should be apparent by now to almost anyone who has gagged over more than two of your mind-numbing, puke-provoking posts, that you are obviously a failed pro-pilot, with serious "issues" that could best be resolved by intensive therapy and/or repeated visits on the talk-show circuit.

In any event, here is a challenge for you, Scrublisher. How about finding, getting, training,and then keeping a real, Part 121 flying job? Challenge yourself. Try it out. Let us know how it goes . . . . . and remember, if you can't cut it anywhere else, there's always Gulfstream.

 

[Wefly4fun]

Heres a fine example of how GIA works.

Last summer I was working for a 1900D operator that was about to furlough some pilots. So since I had over 600hrs in the right seat of the 1900D and I am from Florida it would be logical to try to get on there. Now mind you I did not know much about them at the time. So I called the corp HQ on the phone about getting an interview and they refered me to their acadamy. When I called the acadamy they started going on about there ab intio program and that it was $20k. I politely stopped the guy who telling me all of the ups of the company and I told him that I was an experienced FO in the 1900D and did not need my private/commercial or multi ratings I just wanted a paying job. He very quickly told me the only way to get hired at GIA was to pay the $20k and go through there "acadamy". I told him that there was now way in #$@% that I would ever pay $20k for the privilage of flying a 1900D.

They don't want experience, they want the money.

acadamy=Money Machine

 

[bobbysamd]

Learning a trade or profession v. P-F-T

Metalleg38:

Here's the difference.

A person decides that he/she wants to be a lawyer. The person goes to college and law school to earn his J.D. and passes the bar examination. He/she paid for that education. Upon graduation from law school, the person starts to look for a job and is hired by a lawfirm. At that point, the lawfirm starts teaching the person how to be a lawyer. Law school teaches you the theory of law and how law works, but does not teach you how to be a lawyer. At any rate, the lawfirm is paying the tyro attorney full salary while he/she learns the nuts and bolts of practicing law. The new attorney has NOT written a check to the lawfirm to cover any cost of his/her training.

Now, let's substitute "pilot" for "lawyer."

A person decides that he/she wants to be a pilot. The person goes to training to earn his/her Commercial certificate and maybe a CFI. Upon graduation from training, the person starts to look for a job and is hired by a company. At that point, the company starts teaching the person its specific procedures. Flight training teaches you how to fly and the theory of flight, but does not give you the experience you need to advance to better positions. Only hours flying can give you that experience. At any rate, the company should pay the pilot during training (there are many pay schemes for new-hires) and full salary when the pilot goes to the line. The new pilot should NOT have to write a check to the company to cover any cost of his/her training.

See the difference?

By the way, people are hired to work in lawfirms with little education. They just are not hired as lawyers, legal secretaries, or paralegals.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[publisher]

TY

Ty,

Would not have been very difficult for me to get a 121 job, I started two of them and could just have hired myself.

Never had much interest in flying someone elses aircraft, unless of course it was the Russians or the Goodyear Blimp.

At nearing 60, probably too old to start now but you never know.

Do not much care what GIA has set up nor does it bother me. I enjoy the dabate. Don't really see much difference in this than the guys who used to want to be right seat in my King Air for free to get the time.

Don't really judge people by their participation when I do nnot know anything about them. I ahve not noticed any smelly foreign nationals or panicky rotor heads but I will keep an eye open next time I go by there. I did see a half with there once.

I have to go now, time for my therapy session. The doctor says he can cure this aviation thing.