Any new ABX info?

[LarryinTN]

With a fixed percentage raise we are taking the risk of high(er) inflation. With a COLA+X the company takes that risk. I prefer the COLA+X approach but agree with you that X=1% isn't going to gain us a lot of ground. It would be nice to have a bigger X for at least the 8/06 increase. The company's X=0.5% is completely unacceptable, IMO, as is their 3% cap.

 

[xspud]

1. Box-Hauler, you have a great and necessary idea: “once we have 10 767's or 20 crews or 36 months of straight service on an ANA Asian flight, all lines must conform to scheduling parameters (15 days off a month).” Recommend changing 36 to18 months and striking the word ‘straight’, they will cancel over a weekend to reset the clock.

We have a poor track record when it comes to looking into the future. We need a chance to fix the mistakes we inadvertently agree to now.

23 or even 18 day blocks are going to really suck. With the exception of the ILN locals and guys needing a block of off time or open time, how many are clamoring for the 16 day reserve blocks? At least you won’t fly ½ of it, how tired would you be if you had to fly it all? It’s okay to concede to 23 now, but we need an out if there is a lot of people screaming.

Forget that ANA pays for the tickets, ABX would like to keep people over there indefinitely so you can make them money instead of wasting their revenue days by commuting.

I agree with both of you, a firm option to rescind this provision is a smart and maybe essential provision. Of course, everything in the contract is subject to novel interpretations. I'm thinking of the whole of Article 13 or the fact that just because the contract says "the Company and Union will meet to determine the changes necessary in this Article to facilitate (a foreign domicile)" doesn't mean that the company thinks they have to do so.


A while back I tried to research what the other ANA (contract) pilot's schedules were like. I didn't get much response, but I believe most of them average about 17 days on per month, some do that in 2 blocks, commuting is mostly on their own time and partially at their own expense.


For comparison, my understanding of the union's proposal would involve an average of about 16 days on per month with commuting on work days. That's assuming the company will use every provision to build schedules to the max days on per cycle (a reasonable assumption).


I do agree with the concept that we should minimize the number of times we commute across the Pacific. I don't think I would want to do it twice per month, though some of the ANA contract pilots are doing that.


Given a provision to rescind/revise the agreement, if the operation ever involved longer flights or flights to the U.S. we could build schedules like UPS/FedEx/Lufthansa/legacies, as I understand them one 10-14 day block per month. Generally one or two long out-and-backs.


The ACMI's like Atlas have mostly atrocious schedules. We should research them only to know what to avoid.

It seems unlikely to me that the ANA operation will ever be huge, but we should definitely be looking for a contract that is prepared for that possibility. ANA is contracting ABX because they want to ramp up faster than is possible with their own aircraft. It takes ANA 6-8 months to bring a contract pilot on line plus they are waiting for conversions and Boeing delivery schedules. It doesn't appear to me that we can do the job cheaper than they could do it themselves (though we may be, any thoughts out there?). We can do it sooner, ie: short-term. But I'm sure ANA will be analyzing this operation and will be open to the possibility of using us further, so we need to be prepared.

 

[xspud]

2. A replacement for the DC-9 is coming in the next 5 years. We need to ensure its transition is smooth. Imagine the future problems with bidding, upgrades, scheduling and quality of life if a 73 and DC-9 were alternated every month in the nearby cities. It didn’t happen with the 76 because it didn’t make sense to. But inter-changeability will be a nightmare for us in the future. It can be fixed with one short paragraph in the CBA.

Another great point. We need to examine how the "weekends at home" paradigm has affected our thinking about scheduling rules. Weekend layovers in your home city are a fading dream for the majority. Many "junior" (7-12 year) crewmembers never got to join that party and I don't think it's much of a factor for 767 crews, either. The block of "weekend home" lineholders has had a lot of influence in past votes. But the introduction of a DC9 replacement plus DHL's constant change mentality should reduce that block of voters to a minority. I don't know what all the implications are, but we better be thinking about it because we are going to be living with it as GoABX said.

 

[penguin22]

We now have a real problem….your negotiators already told Joe we would sign for cheap.

Yea, We're taking note...

Ok, so tell us... How much of a pay raise is on the table with your negotiations?
No Concessionary Contracts!

 

[jdflyer51]

According to Joe Muckle the cola so far for this year is .93% One of my big worries about the ANA deal and the huge extra pay they are giving for that is that we do not see their future plans. Steve Jayson has often mentioned that they will do this 23 day thing until it is cheaper to do a domicile. Does that mean they will then plan on going back to the same pay as the rest of us 1.43% increase? I agree with the earlier statements that lots of guys in the 767 want the non standard lines. I managed to get one this month with vacation but am usually too junior to get one.

 

[LarryinTN]

Two things...

With a COLA+X% we DO NOT want high inflation to get bigger raises. Our raise is the +X%, not the COLA. The COLA is only keeping us up with inflation and 28%-33% of that is going to federal income tax anyway, not to mention state and medicare, so our buying power is better with a smaller COLA, not a bigger COLA. We want a bigger "X%", not a bigger COLA.

Second, If I haven't convinced you that a small CPI is better for us than a larger one, the 0.93% is for the first six months of the July '06-July '07 period and it includes last Fall where the price of oil, gasoline and most forms of energy fell dramatically. Fall is also the time of year where inflation is usually stagnant, if not negative. It is the Spring when the majority of a year's inflation takes place and that isn't in Muckle's figure. If you look at the most recent twelve months, so that it includes an entire year's inflation cycle, it is 2.8%--slightly over three times the 0.93% from the last six months.

That said, we gotta get past this idea that high inflation is a good thing with a COLA+X% contract.

 

[Box-Hauler]

I agree with the earlier statements that lots of guys in the 767 want the non standard lines. I managed to get one this month with vacation but am usually too junior to get one.

OK I get the idea that the 76 guys like the option of possibly getting more days off if they can hold a nonstandard line, if they are not too junior. That said we need to look at the big picture. How about the option of "local lines" or A/B schedules or whatever you want to call them.

How about a schedule that we can actualy create or build ourselves. ABX still builds lines by hand. Yeah I know a computer helps but it is a system that most airlines abandoned 10 or more years ago. We cannot even see our current line of flying online unless you are at a ILN computer. My old commuter 9+ years ago had our schedules on the internet.

If we are looking at schedules lets look at the way our company is moving. It is going away from the racetracked city with the weekends at your home. The open time that gets you home for the 4 day weekend is going fast. Now is the time to look forward to a system that is good for all regaurdless of what DHL does with city pairs or A/C swaps.

Our scheduling is a joke and a huge waste of time and manpower. The company talks about productivity for pilots, one computer program could save hundreds of scheduling man hours a month.

Just a though, what are the negatives that anyone can see with this idea, besides the obvious one of Joe saying it cost too much to invest in a system that will increase productivty. Think how much they could save on their watts line (800 number) without 600+ guys calling in to find out what they are doing every other day.

 

[goastar]

Ok, so tell us... How much of a pay raise is on the table with your negotiations?
No Concessionary Contracts!

More than some, less than others.

 

[LarryinTN]

Anybody see the new DHL TV ad which shows a row of DC9s being loaded with C-Containers? I would have expected them to show B757s or B767s.

Hey, at least three or four DC9s got washed!

 

[freighthound]

Anybody see the new DHL TV ad which shows a row of DC9s being loaded with C-Containers? I would have expected them to show B757s or B767s.

They showed a C-Container? Perish the thought. I thought DHL was going to cut ABX off because they loved the A-Container and hated the C's. Hmmm.

 

[xspud]

Uh, oh...DC9's and C-containers on TV?
Penguin's right, we're DOOMED!

DHL's advertising again? I'm tempted to make cynical comments like,
"What are they, gluttons for punishment?" or
"What's the slogan, 'Service, we really mean it this time'!"
but I won't!

Seriously, I hope they've got things ironed out and they get a ton of customers. Growth fixes everything.

 

[erichartmann]

Two things...


That said, we gotta get past this idea that high inflation is a good thing with a COLA+X% contract.

High inflation is never a good thing for us. COLA helps us protect ourselves against it. As others have pointed out the real money for us is in the +X%.

COLA were negotiated out of most labor contracts after the double digit inflation of the early '80s. They were very expensive for the company, as they forced the company to pass along cost to the customer rather than make the workforce bear the brunt. That said, Hete's COLA +.5% with a 3% cap is not a joke, its an insult. Particularly since it doesn't include retro. This is actually a pay cut based on last years CPI.

We need to be sure the E-board doesn't cave in and agree to the ANA deal without getting the rest of the contract TA'ed.

For those of us who like the non-standard lines in the 767, our E-board and negotiating committee have written langauge reducing the total number of non-standard lines. The company wanted to increase them. While I'm certainly not in favor of giving management a free hand to write as many non-standard lines as they might wish I am opposed the reduction.

If our E-board brings back a TA with Hete's insult and the reduction in non-standard lines I'll be voting no.

 

[penguin22]

Hete's COLA +.5% with a 3% cap is not a joke, its an insult. Particularly since it doesn't include retro.

If the eboard comes back with that as our TA, I think we can all agree that will be the first TA we vote down.

 

[MJH767]

Many folks like the 767 non-standard lines. A lot of the flying we do doesn't fit the scheduling rules that we designed for the "old days" (Airborne) of racetrack and home for the weekend. I fly those lines maybe 75% of the time. I have never flown with an F/O who was "forced" to fly one and was p***ed off to be there. I don't know the numbers to compare 12 day of work lines verses 36-hour layovers, but at first glance, it seems that if we make them conform to normal scheduling rules, it may require fewer lines.? They go very senior on the captain side, especially for vacation. Many commuters fly them. How many people were "forced" that is, they bid them last and that's all they could hold?? I'm suspicious of people who want to change this and really have never flown them.

 

[FreightBumper]

Besides if the senior pilots like them, who do the rest of the pilot group think they are trying to change something that might benefit the whole group.

 

[MJH767]

Besides if the senior pilots like them, who do the rest of the pilot group think they are trying to change something that might benefit the whole group.

The senior pilots in each seat will get first choice of whatever lines there are.
If someone wants to make sure the "senior" pilots don't get nice lines, they'll have to make them all bad. A few years ago we went through something similar, and the "stuff" rolled down hill as it always does. The senior people in each seat had to change their bid patterns, since what they normally would have bid wasn't available anymore. It didn't last long since other folks couldn't get weekends at home anymore. Everyone lost.

 

[LarryinTN]

I certainly hear complaints about the non-standard lines. If they go senior then who's doing the complaining? I'm quite happy to "legitimize" the N/S lines in the main body of Article 13 as long as they are limited to the point that they do go reasonably senior. As a DC9 pilot, I have no idea what number of N/S lines would achieve that goal.

 

[MJH767]

LJ--Who do you hear the complaints from? I have a hard time understanding why people who are not affected are so interested in doing away with or limiting these lines? I don't think it would sit too well if 767 people objected to DC9 racetracks, or the weekends in the DC9 were divided up.

 

[LarryinTN]

I've heard complaints from 767 pilots. I didn't take a survey to rank their relative seniority.

I don't agree with those who want to see the N/S lines eliminated but I think that it's a good idea to limit them to a point where people who don't want them aren't stuck with them. I have no idea if that point is more, or less, than the number of N/S lines that you have now.

 

[abxaviator]

As a 767 FO I can assure you that some of these lines do indeed go to junior FO's who do not want them, generally because they are commuters.