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Anti union voters at Flexjet/Options

airman2105

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You know if someone wants to run his own Union he has been bought and paid for by you know who! He has been promised promotion like PD, why else does he have different levels of managers? Everyone is looking over their shoulder in case a "special manager" reports him. The general theme of Flexjet pilots is to "remain under the radar", we don't want to get fired. Is that the type of company that does not need a union? It is crying out to keep the union in place. Your CEO has a history that stinks of deceit and manipulation so what makes you think time is going to change him. I think if you really thought you had the votes you would have pushed for it months ago.
 

jetwash

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You know if someone wants to run his own Union he has been bought and paid for by you know who! He has been promised promotion like PD, why else does he have different levels of managers? Everyone is looking over their shoulder in case a "special manager" reports him. The general theme of Flexjet pilots is to "remain under the radar", we don't want to get fired. Is that the type of company that does not need a union? It is crying out to keep the union in place. Your CEO has a history that stinks of deceit and manipulation so what makes you think time is going to change him. I think if you really thought you had the votes you would have pushed for it months ago.


You are absolutely correct.

When we finally got our first contact, all of the worry about looking over your shoulder for backstabbing coworkers went away. All of the stress and pressure directed at you from management and their clones disappeared.
Many on the Flexjet side have been experiencing this since the merger not knowing what is going to happen next.

You will see things drastically calm down when there is a new CBA and you can go back to enjoying your job knowing the work rules and where you stand.
If you believe that throwing away a contract with work rules will make things better and improve your quality of life at work you will be sadly disappointed.
The retribution, back stabbing and buddy system will amplify the stress and uncertainty that many are now feeling.

You may not like the Teamsters but they really are try to make things better for you and your families.
 

jetmaster727

Old School
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You are absolutely correct.

When we finally got our first contact, all of the worry about looking over your shoulder for backstabbing coworkers went away. All of the stress and pressure directed at you from management and their clones disappeared.
Many on the Flexjet side have been experiencing this since the merger not knowing what is going to happen next.

You will see things drastically calm down when there is a new CBA and you can go back to enjoying your job knowing the work rules and where you stand.
If you believe that throwing away a contract with work rules will make things better and improve your quality of life at work you will be sadly disappointed.
The retribution, back stabbing and buddy system will amplify the stress and uncertainty that many are now feeling.

You may not like the Teamsters but they really are try to make things better for you and your families.


I dont understand why why any employee would trust a management that refuses to honor a fairly arbitrated contract. If they really thought of you as family they would at lest show the respect of honoring our mcba
 

Imissmypilot

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Sitting around the FBO I was talking to a potential new hire who turned down the offer Flexjet made to him. His main reason? The website address he was given for what is "affectionately" known as the porn lounge. He said it's one thing for employees to feel frustrated with management (he even said in aviation it's practically a requirement) but it's a whole new toxic level to have a group of pilots turn on their union. In his words: "who wants to work at a place with a bunch of clueless jackasses?"

Incidentally he was given the website address during another FBO chat from a Flexer who thought he was doing the guy a great favor when he asked about the status of the negotiations. The Flexers proud retort was there would be no negotiations to worry about and suggested he go look at the site. I'd love to know what idiot thought that was a good idea.

Speaking of the porn lounge you gotta love the obviously complete-bs-save-face response they are giving for their naming oversight. Even though it was created months after yammer shut down, even though they didn't acknowledge or address it for months after it was brought up to them, even though they accused people who pointed it out as being childish and gutteral, they are now trying to ride the wave and make you believe it was some kind of statement. Never trust a guy who can't admit he made a mistake let alone laugh at them.

Which is it: they are bastions of professionalism, integrity, class and respect OR they are anger driven homies who are gonna show tha man what they think about being silenced? Well at least the last option matches the threats of physical harm that same "leader" has made to more than a few pilots. Funny thing for all his smack talk I hear he backs down like a pu$$y cat from every opportunity to even simply verbally express his frustrations face to face.

You can't pay for that kind of entertainment. Come on MRE - you wanna keep defending your boy? It's getting pretty hard when you start finding out the truth isn't it?
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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Wouldn't it be really ironic if they fail to represent someone and that person decides to sue FW, PD, TP, MW, et al personally? Where are they going to get the money if nobody has to pay dues?
 

doh

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Spoiler alert! FW is telling people they will be displaced from red label if they joined after October 10 because the union demanded it in negotiations. That is BS! They never even discussed it! Do not fall victim to Wookie speak!
 

doh

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Posted from the VUH with permission from the original poster:

Using FW's own written words from 11/19 and 11/22 he makes it clear he does not intend to form an in-house union. He only leaves that open as a future possibility should pilots feel, after some period time experimenting with no representation, one was necessary.

Pilots need to understand that sending in a card is not a vote to replace the Teamsters with an in-house union, it is a showing of interest to become a completely unrepresented pilot group. I'm hearing some pilots may have been mislead on this very important point and if so, they need to refresh their facts with FW's own written words. To his credit, FW is not trying to fool anyone: he is very upfront with his assertion he does not feel we need any representation be it Teamsters or in-house.

Pilots need to understand sending in a card of interest puts the entirety of any representation on the line. I don't think some of the rhetoric bandied about by others associated with the drive is as forthright or clear as FW was in his posts because I know very few pilots who want to go back to no representation at all. I believe if pilots truly understood the stakes of sending in that card they would tear it up. It's not a case of democracy in action, it's just a way to get us back to at will.

It is an extremely, extremely risky way for someone to express their displeasure. A far more compelling and successful maneuver would be to get involved in the union we already have and help create the union you want that way.
 

Imissmypilot

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Spoiler alert! FW is telling people they will be displaced from red label if they joined after October 10 because the union demanded it in negotiations. That is BS! They never even discussed it! Do not fall victim to Wookie speak!

Good to know. I think there is confusion because of some recent new aircraft assignments.

What I can confirm is happening (because I spoke with the guys it's happening to) is early comers to the Red Label program are now being switched out of their dog-eared and spent Red Label tail numbers and put into the new aircraft deliveries.

Then those older POS are being handed over to the later list additions. These guys will have slim to no chance of earning the reliability etc... bonuses.

Yet another way for Kenn to reward his top 20%. The divide is now beginning to show its early legs.

So question for all the supposed FoKs. In reality, after all the gamesmanship and propaganda, there's only room for 100. You're either in or you're out. Get ready for it go away without your union protecting it if old Wookie gets his way.

As inconvenient as it is to admit, the union is the only entity that fought for these Red Label guys to keep what they have.
 

doh

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I Know the passions run deep on this topic but calling out people and trying to intentionally damage the careers of the people you have worked with for years is just plain the wrong thing to do. Also personal insults toward FW are unfounded. i have known him for 13 years and the man is truly honorable and of good concience He is doing what he believes in as are u. Let go of the personal and focus on ur points. And insults about him not having the balls to this or that are ridiculous He didnt have to get involved in this He is Very senior at Flex and would be just fine without it. He has no management aspirations. He is just doing what he believes in. FW is one of the toughest guys I have ever met and a man of honor and courage Make your points but dont attack the individual.

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The card drive is actually verified by the NMB There is no possibillity of a corrupted list. None. Lets just see if we can do better with a vote. It is the will of the people. I have seen the names on the list Some of these men and women are respected by the entire pilot group They are honorable and good people. The list probably has some of your friends on it. Does their opinion the opinion of a large number of your coworkers matter. I believe it does. We should all support a vote and address the will of the people it effects. Hope you guys take a break from the angry rants and have a nice Holoday

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FW got his G650 position as the second most senior Flexjet pilot who applied JF was the first and declined wishing to remain in his current position. The slots were filled according to the union rules of a 50/50 split between Flex and Options pilots. Check the facts and stop trying to concoct conspiracy theories.

no one got this position based on seniority! Wookieboy got this based on favoritism and nothing else. Why would anyone interview for a job they already have? Especially when everyone already knows who will be deemed to be most qualified. He got the position strictly because he assumed the position and suppressed his gag reflex so many times. Seniority had nothing to do with it.
 

TexasChallenger

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FW got his G650 position as the second most senior Flexjet pilot who applied JF was the first and declined wishing to remain in his current position. The slots were filled according to the union rules of a 50/50 split between Flex and Options pilots. Check the facts and stop trying to concoct conspiracy theories.

It's not the Union's rules. It was the arbitrator's decision, and it's 60/40, not 50/50.
 

Imissmypilot

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Posted from the VUH with permission from the original poster:

Using FW's own written words from 11/19 and 11/22 he makes it clear he does not intend to form an in-house union. He only leaves that open as a future possibility should pilots feel, after some period time experimenting with no representation, one was necessary.

Pilots need to understand that sending in a card is not a vote to replace the Teamsters with an in-house union, it is a showing of interest to become a completely unrepresented pilot group. I'm hearing some pilots may have been mislead on this very important point and if so, they need to refresh their facts with FW's own written words. To his credit, FW is not trying to fool anyone: he is very upfront with his assertion he does not feel we need any representation be it Teamsters or in-house.

Pilots need to understand sending in a card of interest puts the entirety of any representation on the line. I don't think some of the rhetoric bandied about by others associated with the drive is as forthright or clear as FW was in his posts because I know very few pilots who want to go back to no representation at all. I believe if pilots truly understood the stakes of sending in that card they would tear it up. It's not a case of democracy in action, it's just a way to get us back to at will.

It is an extremely, extremely risky way for someone to express their displeasure. A far more compelling and successful maneuver would be to get involved in the union we already have and help create the union you want that way.

That's all well and good doh but the problem is FW has other posts, and surrogates, that are much cagier in their explanation of how they intend to represent (or actually not represent). You are 100% correct in your assertions above but the problem you and others in union leadership fail recognize is you are not dealing with truthful or transparent people, either in management or this decertification campaign.

Do you notice how they absolutely fail to give any detail but claim they are just following the example of the IBT? How so? The union published all 20 plus sections of their proposed contract. The union published all court transcripts. The union published their proposed seniority list. They published the names, cell numbers and emails of everyone involved in the POC drive or later might have access to pilot membership information or union activity. I could go on. Where is even the tiniest example of FW and gang's willingness to be even slightly transparent with their plans? So "to his credit" nothing. These decert people are not being honest and one thing you did get absolutely right is you'd be crazy to risk your career, to risk being unrepresented, on a group that refuses to be even slightly transparent.

Here's the thing: just because you and others in leadership are honest and transparent you cannot expect them to be. All they have to do is allege you weren't and this pilot group will do nothing, research nothing and remember nothing that has already proven the union to have been the taker of the high road everytime. They are great at manipulative PR. They know, as presented in the Confessions of a Union Buster, all they have to do is get the accusations out their against Union folk and they are as good as if they were actually true.

I have talked to people in leadership. I know the information is scarce sometimes because you guys do not want to speculate, you do not want mislead. But I for one would appreciate a little more of these type of clarifications like above from you guys. I would like to hear more from our negotiations committee in particular.

And one more thing to people like gulfguy or FW or even some VUH posters who want to discount the validity of what happens on FlightInfo. The whole point to the benefit of a completely anonymous board is that the truth can be spoken here. At the porn lounge FW has your info (and you're a fool if you don't think that data gets shared and somehow finds its way back to management). The vuh does not want to have honest discussion sometimes if it is critical of the power structure or decisions and is full of thin skinned posters. So yeah, I will stick to FI. Even though I have my concerns about this site as well it's better than the other options and the anonymity preserves cockpit relationships. So don't insult people who are at least paying attention.
 

Imissmypilot

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It's not the Union's rules. It was the arbitrator's decision, and it's 60/40, not 50/50.

And is a prime example, despite the mCBA being a more pro-company document, how hard the union worked to protect the rights of all pilots as we merge together.

Do you honestly think management was happy with this clause? I'm sure Kenn was spitting nails that anyone was going to dictate to him anything about how he was going to do it or who he would put in there. It kind of screws with his plan to make it the FoK club as (or if) the program gets bigger.

Despite the union losing that 10%, it's a frigging miracle it's in there. And I thank them for it.
 

doh

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IMMP, That is not my post from the VUH. I re posted it with permission. It does not reflect my opinion entirely. However, it does illustrate that they are attempting to leave the pilots without any underpinnings of support.
 

Imissmypilot

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IMMP, That is not my post from the VUH. I re posted it with permission. It does not reflect my opinion entirely. However, it does illustrate that they are attempting to leave the pilots without any underpinnings of support.

OK then what is entirely your opinion?
 

doh

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OK then what is entirely your opinion?

I believe FW is trying to deceive the pilot group. He is honest in admitting that he won't represent us, rather he will immediately cease representation. BUT, he deceives by saying the union is forcing pilots out of red label, the union refuses to work with management and by allowing the rest of his decert group to remain anonymous. Anonymity allows them to tell blatant lies while FW protects his "integrity" mask. We, the pilots (because that is who the union is), will work with management to make us a red label operation if that is what they want. But management don't want to work with the pilots and negotiate. They want to dictate and exercise total power and control over our work lives. That is what I believe. Look what they are doing to the flight attendants now! They are forcing them to bid only 7 and 8 days rotations. They will do the same with us as soon as there is no more union. But the OPs post makes one large valid point and I shared it for the purpose of driving that point home. Voting for decert means voting for ZERO representation. Many people are falling for the false claims made by the rest of the ANONYMOUS members of his group.
 

airman2105

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Asking for a vote may not agree with you but many of the Flexjet pilots are not happy with the IBT You guys are all arrogance and false solidarity Solidarity should be to the people who you work with If they want a vote lets have a vote and may the best representation win

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Be careful how you handle your second attempt at a fake scab list This could be misconstrued as attempting to tamper with the upcoming vote You guys should Never be making such suggestions Lets keep it legal shall we?

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The actual numbers will be revealed soon but I will say the number of those calling for a vote is far more than expected. Why are you so afraid of offering all of the Options to the entire pilot group and letting a vote decide It all seems very American to me. What system would cry out against a vote in order to remain in power.
You want to rely on Management by Trust? How can you do that when you know history. It is very dumb.
 

el raton

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I don’t think the numbers are there. This attempt to decert is becoming much to do about nothing. I personally was hoping it would happen, but not enough people are interested.

Flex pilots will regret supporting this union.
 

doh

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Rat, I’m not going to underestimate these guys.
 

doh

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The most important thing to remember is you are NOT voting for an in-house union, you are voting for NO representation if you vote for decertification. The 3% raise for Flexjet pilots, the signing bonus, the last day 14 hour limit rule and all of the rest of the work rules go away. Rat, I’ve got another question for you. If this contract is so awful, why don’t management push to have it in effect? If it is so awful, won’t it drive pilots to vote for decert? Hmmm, maybe they don’t want it in effect because they know it will have the opposite effect...
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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I don’t think the numbers are there. This attempt to decert is becoming much to do about nothing. I personally was hoping it would happen, but not enough people are interested.

Flex pilots will regret supporting this union.

I worked for 2N without a contract, and I can tell you this was not a nice place to work. The talking point from the other side is that 2N wasn't here then, but he was still on the board. We had in-house committees in the past and we got absolutely nowhere. Just send in the card so we get a voice? The 1108 speaks for me.. And I know that I'm not a good enough negotiator to go up against KR alone. Have a Merry Christmas.
 
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