Another pay cut for Citationair!

[Helmsalee]

Rigger has it right. It does not matter if IBT are a bunch of pussies. If the pilot group stands together, they will get the best deal available. Times are tough so wishing for the moon won't work. However, reasonable improvements are there if you stick together.

 

[imacdog]

T-1's post was correct. And yet, so was mine. Weird world we live, uh?

Sure, I'll compare my wages against NJA,s but let use the old numbers. The "pre contract" numbers are less and the Post Contract are more. But you're arguing with one hand the IBT is great but admit with the other that NJA tossed them out with the trash.

When we're done with your pay challenge maybe we can whip out our pricks and compare the length too? Not sure what your point is with comparing NJA pay to VNR pay. Whatever,

My only point here is IBT sux. NJA sorta agrees with me. Your point is lost on me.

No, your post was incorrect. It does not matter which national union (if any) your pilots belong to. If the pilots are strong and unified, then they won't let management jack them around.

I'm not sure what you mean by "use the old number" for Avantair against NJA. Your pilots have never made comparable money to NJA.

 

[gunfyter]

Year 14 pay for the TEAMSTERS negotiated 1998 CBA was about $95,754.

In 2011 dollars that is $133K.

What's your year 14 pay?

CPI Inflation Calculator


What would it have been in 1998?

Additionally we generally had better work rules, medical, benefits etc.. Not in all cases.

This is the 1998 CBA payscale adjusted for inflation ... year 1 through 14

1 $52,692
2 $55,344
3 $65,619
4 $80,609
5 $84,718
6 $89,221
7 $93,908
8 $103,549
9 $106,869
10 $112,306
11 $117,177
12 $122,314
13 $127,602
14 $133,154

Currently Year 14 pay is $136K... So i have not gotten an INFLATION ADJUSTED raise from the TEAMSTER negotiated 1998 CBA.

 

[AftCG182]

Year 14 pay for the TEAMSTERS negotiated 1998 CBA was about $95,754.

In 2011 dollars that is $133K.

What's your year 14 pay?

CPI Inflation Calculator


What would it have been in 1998?

Additionally we generally had better work rules, medical, benefits etc.. Not in all cases.

This is the 1998 CBA payscale adjusted for inflation ... year 1 through 14

1 $52,692
2 $55,344
3 $65,619
4 $80,609
5 $84,718
6 $89,221
7 $93,908
8 $103,549
9 $106,869
10 $112,306
11 $117,177
12 $122,314
13 $127,602
14 $133,154

Currently Year 14 pay is $136K... So i have not gotten an INFLATION ADJUSTED raise from the TEAMSTER negotiated 1998 CBA.

The closest that I can some is year 12 Captain pay on my 8/6 schedule. $117,700. The year 11 Captain pay on the 7/7 schedule is at $101,000. Nothing's listed beyond that.

Not sure what you guys were getting at, but we have an ex-NetJet Citation-X guy that came to us after leaving you for a stint at Skybus. From what I've heard, pre-contract NetJets was no walk in the park.

BTW, I tried cutting/pasting the pay grid from APC.com, but it just turned into a great big mess.

As always, I wish the best for ALL of us in the Fractional industry. Hope this info helps. :beer:

 

[gunfyter]

The point I am trying to make is that the CBA the Teamsters negotiated ... in 1998, was not as terrible THEN ... as it sounds now ... Yes by 2005 it was terrible.

Once you correct for inflation, I am doing about the same as a 14 year Captain was in 1998.

 

[G4dude]

I have 3 brothers who are Teamsters driving trucks in Westchester... I don't think you would want to compare pay with them....

This whole aviation industry makes me sick.

I finally make more than my brother on year 13 Falcon PIC pay.

College plus ATP w 4 types vs GED+ CDL.

Wow! How much do teamster truck drivers make?

 

[G4dude]

Year 14 pay for the TEAMSTERS negotiated 1998 CBA was about $95,754.

In 2011 dollars that is $133K.

What's your year 14 pay?

CPI Inflation Calculator


What would it have been in 1998?

Additionally we generally had better work rules, medical, benefits etc.. Not in all cases.

This is the 1998 CBA payscale adjusted for inflation ... year 1 through 14

1 $52,692
2 $55,344
3 $65,619
4 $80,609
5 $84,718
6 $89,221
7 $93,908
8 $103,549
9 $106,869
10 $112,306
11 $117,177
12 $122,314
13 $127,602
14 $133,154

Currently Year 14 pay is $136K... So i have not gotten an INFLATION ADJUSTED raise from the TEAMSTER negotiated 1998 CBA.

Except that 1998 payscale was heavily weighted towards senior captains, look at what the junior guys were making. The contract now is MUCH better...

 

[The Dude Abides]

The Union is working out great thus far.....loss of insurance, another pay cut, loss of 401k money, still no sick policy, Short term disability now after 6 months you are terminated.....at this rate the pilots will work for free under the union!!

And all of this is the union's fault because . . . . .?

 

[The Dude Abides]

Citationshares put pay scales into effect in 2008 when they were loosing pilots by the truckload due to the netjets new contract and it's pay. The pay went into effect and all was well until the downturn 3 years ago. At that time management made a new payscale and published it it was reduced 2,3,4,5,6 percent dependent where you were in the scale also capt or FO. They did this same thing the next year ( always around Xmas) and poof a very large pay cut was taken although the company said it was not a paycut since no ones pay was cut...only your next amount expected has been reduced (sleeve balls comes to mind don't it)

Now they take the published rates and say to hell with them they are gone and you get a 2percent raise!!! Congratulations!!!

It must be mentioned the CEO who stepped down ( read fired) after the IBT was elected said last year " I wish these pay scales were never published, from now on consider them only informational" ( sleezeball comes to mind don't it)

This is the story......POS management is kicking the pilots butts because of the union vote, the girls and boys are being punished and the 1108 says don't say anything we are working on it don't rock the boat don't upSet the company it will hurt negotiations.....idiots!

As soon as the pay was cut again.......write every dam thing up and start to allow the company to see who has the real power to keep things smooth and flowing.......as was said a strong pilot group and a strong willed union not the Panay ass 1108 money grabbers!!!!

Did you drink and post? What's a "sleeve ball" and a "Panay ass"? What do you think the union "idiots" are doing at the negotiating table? They're working through a process to get a CBA. They can do nothing to stop the company from doing anything without a contract. Get it?

 

[The Dude Abides]

I thought that during negotiations pay scales can't be changed?

That's true if you already have a contract. It doesn't apply during a first contract negotiation.

 

[The Dude Abides]

The HORRIBLE pay, work rules and misc. compensation package that was negotiated by IBT for Flight Options was directly responsible for the Avantair union drive failing. I'm not at all familiar with what the IBT did (or did not) do for NetJets, so I can't comment on that. The non-union offerings by Avantair management are waaay better than what the Teamsters would have gotten for us, minus the mandatory salary deduction as an added bonus.

Better QOL without the monthly pay gouging? Works for me.

WOULD have gotten? You can read the future?

 

[gunfyter]

Except that 1998 payscale was heavily weighted towards senior captains, look at what the junior guys were making. The contract now is MUCH better...

This is true.

Truck drivers do well. I hear 6 figures driving oil tankers in from the fracking sites at Eagle Ford in Texas and the ones in North Dakota.

 

[G4dude]

This is true.

Truck drivers do well. I hear 6 figures driving oil tankers in from the fracking sites at Eagle Ford in Texas and the ones in North Dakota.

They are getting a premium for the risk of all that flammable cargo, I suppose.

 

[bailout]

I got news for you. Just saw a special on CNN last week. 15 year bus drivers in the NYC and DCmetro areas make @ 145,000 a year..

 

[glasspilot]

I got news for you. Just saw a special on CNN last week. 15 year bus drivers in the NYC and DCmetro areas make @ 145,000 a year..

I bet the thrust of the story wasn't how underpaid they were.

 

[emspilot 01]

CitationAir...

Here is the bottom line for most flying jobs. The pilots are willing to take less money, so companies will never pay them very well. How many other jobs will people do stuff for free?

 

[gunfyter]

I got news for you. Just saw a special on CNN last week. 15 year bus drivers in the NYC and DCmetro areas make @ 145,000 a year..

Goose,

You got the number to that truck driving school? :0

 

[rigger]

Did you drink and post? What's a "sleeve ball" and a "Panay ass"? What do you think the union "idiots" are doing at the negotiating table? They're working through a process to get a CBA. They can do nothing to stop the company from doing anything without a contract. Get it?

Well drinking speed typing and I pad don't mix, also the inability or ability to not give a damn about spelling creates some of the above errors....remember it takes a small mind to spell a word only one way.....sorry dude!

Stop with your drinking the Coolaid, the union will negotiate and negotiate, and negotiate for many more years to come.....the company will continue to screw with you and the pilot group until you stop them by showing them the power you have. The Idiots in the IBT will tell you to be nice don't create waves it only makes it harder at the table....wanna make it go well at the table have the IBT get some balls tell Randy F to man up and create some crap for management.....they are not playing nice, nor will they until they begin to get heat from the customer.......the IBT was and is once again outplayed by real professionals....ever ask yourself how it is the same idiots that negotiated other contracts that sucked in the end are at the table once again.....capt dub sucked before ask the united folks.....and citationair is getting his best again......come on Dude your smarter than your statement....

 

[Praetorian]

Well drinking speed typing and I pad don't mix, also the inability or ability to not give a damn about spelling creates some of the above errors....remember it takes a small mind to spell a word only one way.....sorry dude!

Stop with your drinking the Coolaid, the union will negotiate and negotiate, and negotiate for many more years to come.....the company will continue to screw with you and the pilot group until you stop them by showing them the power you have. The Idiots in the IBT will tell you to be nice don't create waves it only makes it harder at the table....wanna make it go well at the table have the IBT get some balls tell Randy F to man up and create some crap for management.....they are not playing nice, nor will they until they begin to get heat from the customer.......the IBT was and is once again outplayed by real professionals....ever ask yourself how it is the same idiots that negotiated other contracts that sucked in the end are at the table once again.....capt dub sucked before ask the united folks.....and citationair is getting his best again......come on Dude your smarter than your statement....

Yea that's right management is your friend and the union is out to get you. I keep forgetting this, so thanks for the reminder. I just keep thinking that since the guys on the negotiating committee are pilots they must have other pilots best interests in mind and since managers primary function is to maximize profits they probably don't. Thanks for reminding me that my logic is flawed and this doesn't add up because our union also represents truckers. Since we are obviously a more highly evolved form of humanity. What was I thinking?

 

[ghostrider64]

IBT did nothing for netjets pilots, they did it all themselves! It took huge balls to face off with Warren Buffett. In the end their decision to risk everything paid off, not the Teamsters decision to do nothing.