Another MU2 down...

[Wolfy]

I don't understand what everybody is getting huffy about, the design flaw argument is so "out there" that I don't think any of the pilots here are giving that theory too much consideration.

What avbug and the rest of us are saying gives dignity back to any airman that looses life while doing his job, even if the situation got the best of him. You all are taking it all wrong. Much honor in death is the least we can give our fallen comrads, it is taken away when we start blaming the aircraft, the machine, the weather, etc. We acknowledge that there are extenuating circumstances i.e. weather, ice, mechanicle probs, and if so, that makes the guy who'se gone down with his ship even more heroic.

You all are making this too difficult by being so emotionally driven, this is a proffessional pilots board, you are here on our turf, so to speak, and we handle accidents differently than the general public.

These posts aren't worthy of insults from the family, I think you should really try to "see" what is being said with perhaps a different perspective, they are honoring Skyking in the truest way.

 

[WNRHD17]

I do believe the homepage says "Welcome to Aviation Communications, for all your aviation needs!" All of them, not just the professional pilots. My Dad was a professional pilot for 30+ years. I also don't think it's fair to lump all professional pilots into one group. Unless you're a herd of cattle.

 

[Peanut gallery]

Say things that make sense

This place is surely for everyone to discuss their interest in aviation. It is also a place to learn and freely share one's thoughts regarding aviation.
I enjoyed reading the post that your brother shared with us. His interest in aviation was enthusiastic and his sense of humor was wonderfull.

The problem is that you are pursuing a resolution to your incredible loss. In that pursuit, some of your families thoughts have crossed certain lines that aviation enthusiast simply will comment negatively upon. It is basically because they have no agenda other than to discuss the reality of their interest. The one consistant line of thinking through this thread has been to defend any thought about pilot error. We are all human and the final acceptance of that possibility is a step that you may need to make. This in no way takes away from the wonderfull human being that I am sure your brother was. This final acceptance is the true statement of love that is on the other side of the sudden loss trama that all of us unfortunately have felt through the years.

I read the preliminary report from the NTSB. Most of these reports in aircraft without voice recorders or flight data recorders do not change that much. Barring the post crash discovery of some additional major malfunction of the aircraft in addition to the engine loss it will remain pretty much the way it is now, along with a new section listing the contributing factors and the final determination.

The factual text of the preliminary report tell the story. I hate to be blunt but this will certainly be categorized as a loss of control accident. Now you can hate me for saying that but the facts are clear. Basically there is a multi engine airplane that has suffered an engine loss, it was in a position to make it back and flew through the final. In an attempt to get back to the runway it suddenly assumed a near nose down attitude and crashed. The wing quit flying because it was not controlled in a way that was aerodynamicly correct. These are the facts from the report.

I feel terrible for the loss that you have endured but I hope you can accept the facts as the final report is issued by the NTSB. Maybe I am completely wrong but the odds are that you will ultimately have to accept that conclusion.

 

[TIGV]

I am in complete agreement with the Peanut Gallery......

That was something that eventually needed to be put in black and white.

 

[Tadpoles]

Just so you "professionals" know...
no, we are not trying to find a solution. look back in our posts...do we ever give our "2 cents" about what happened? no! why? b/c we're not in the aviation business. all what we're doing is trying to tell you guys that "pilot error" is not always the case (which i'm not putting those words into everyone's mouths--you know who you are) especially before the NTSB report is completely out. Then, when people start saying things such as, "you can't fly that plane without your a-game", or "what these companies are doing are putting these guys with few hours and big egos out on those planes". and just what size is your ego, my sirs? i think in order to BE a pilot, you MUST have a big one, in order to take all that responsibility on your shoulders.
Once again, i'll take a little poll (no one seemed to respond to it the last time, so i'll try again, a little more general this time): WHO HERE HAS LOST A FAMILY MEMBER TO A PLANE CRASH???? just simply answer, that's all i'd like. Once you can experience your flesh and blood dying in a plane, then you tell us to leave emotion out of all you're trying to say, mmk?
Whoever said a long post ago about us being the ones with an emotional attachement to the plane, well, I guess you could say we do--and that emotion would be hate. Besides, it's really fun seeing how mad you all get defending an airplane.

 

[Wolfy]

I do believe the homepage says "Welcome to Aviation Communications, for all your aviation needs!" All of them, not just the professional pilots. My Dad was a professional pilot for 30+ years. I also don't think it's fair to lump all professional pilots into one group. Unless you're a herd of cattle.

My apologies for writing my statements unclearly, I didn''t mean to say that we are excluding you, but meant that we, as a group here, tend to handle aviation accidents differently than those who are not pilots, and not the immediate family. We tend to be emotionally detatched and tend not to want to speculate about the cause until the report comes back, and after the report, we try to glean any information from any accident that would help us become better and more aware pilots.

If the report comes back as pilot error, we tend to find it undignified and dishonoring, to the departed, that anyone would start blaming the airplane. If it were us, we awould want to have the glory of "dying with our boots on", doing something that we loved.

Peanut Gallery-very good post.

 

[Lilah]

SEMANTICS!

That may be what we're dealing with here. I do agree that the PIC is ultimately responsible for the completion of a safe flight, but at the same time is clearly not guilty of negligence if events occur beyond his control. The PIC chooses to accept the risk. Here are a couple of examples where the crew performed as they trained to do, and paid the ultimate price.

AA191
Shuttle Challenger
Shuttle Columbia
Pan Am at Tenerife
Early Comet accidents
The aircraft of 9/11

In all of these examples, the crews performed as they were trained, and the outcome was negative nevertheless. Avbug might have us believe it's the PICs responsibilty, but I can't believe anyone would say it's the PICs fault.

All aircraft are not created equal, and some aircraft DO have design flaws. For example, Van's would encourage you not to build an RV-3 wing to it's original specifications. How about AS-204? Was it Grissom, White's, and Chaffee's fault they boarded a rocket tide to heaven? It is unfortunate that most MU-2s do not have FDRs or CVRs, so we're left with mostly conjecture at this point pending the NTSBs findings, and even then they're not likely to spend as much effort on a single pilot 135 accident as they might with a higher profile situation.

If we all agreed on a few definitions, we might find a more common ground...

Responsibilty
Fault
Negligence
Probable Cause
Design Flaw

To say no aircraft have design flaws, and therefore it's always the pilot's fault is a bit of a stretch in my book, and I don't believe that takes away from (or is inconsistant with) a PICs responsibilty.

Just some food for thought....

Lilah

 

[Snakum]

If it were us, we awould want to have the glory of "dying with our boots on", doing something that we loved.

If it were me, I'd rather be run over by a beer truck while coming out of a whorehouse on my 90th birthday.

But that's just me.



Minhommad

 

[WMUchickenhawk]

I agree with pretty much all you said, except for one thing. The Pan Am at Tenerife failed to turn off at the proper taxi way because it was a sharp turn, had they done so, they would have been clear of the runway

 

[Wolfy]

Good point, that's another difference between pilots and the general public. When it's clearly a stupid human mistake that gets everyone killed we tend to get annoyed with the pilot/crew rather than to be compassionate.

 

[Tadpoles]

Wolfy, first off, my family is not speculating that it wasn't Paul's fault. We don't know. We just don't want others to place the blame on him and him alone immediately, because obviously he's not here to defend himself, only his family is.
Second, we KNOW that Paul died doing what he loved, whether or not his reactions to the engine out caused the nose dive. And we know that Paul would always believe we will back him up, because flying was his dream. We may be civilians, but we certainly do not like, or accept it when someone tells us we're not showing honor and dignity to those lost, including Paul. We dignify his life, Tuck's, and any other lost by questioning, not leaving the answer unknown or simply left to blame the pilot. We're keeping him alive by trying to keep others alive. I'm sure if you died tomorrow in a crash, your family would be doing the same thing--whether or not your mistake cost your own life.

Lilah:

RESPONSIBILITY: "the opportunity or ability to act independently and take decisions without authorization." -Oxford Concise Dictionary.

Snakum,
just keep working toward it, we know you can reach your goal!! WNRHD and I can take you to the bars to get some good time in. We're behind you 101%

 

[apttmab]

Just so you "professionals" know...
no, we are not trying to find a solution. look back in our posts...do we ever give our "2 cents" about what happened? no! why? b/c we're not in the aviation business. all what we're doing is trying to tell you guys that "pilot error" is not always the case (which i'm not putting those words into everyone's mouths--you know who you are) especially before the NTSB report is completely out. Then, when people start saying things such as, "you can't fly that plane without your a-game", or "what these companies are doing are putting these guys with few hours and big egos out on those planes". and just what size is your ego, my sirs? i think in order to BE a pilot, you MUST have a big one, in order to take all that responsibility on your shoulders.
Once again, i'll take a little poll (no one seemed to respond to it the last time, so i'll try again, a little more general this time): WHO HERE HAS LOST A FAMILY MEMBER TO A PLANE CRASH???? just simply answer, that's all i'd like. Once you can experience your flesh and blood dying in a plane, then you tell us to leave emotion out of all you're trying to say, mmk?
Whoever said a long post ago about us being the ones with an emotional attachement to the plane, well, I guess you could say we do--and that emotion would be hate. Besides, it's really fun seeing how mad you all get defending an airplane.

You people(you and family) need to get a life. You are not helping. You are only making it harder on yourself and everyone around you.

Good Luck!

 

[Tadpoles]

Thank you, apttmab, but we all do have lives. It's just that part of our lives now is finding a solution to the mu-2's problems. It's not just our family, it's a lot of other families, congressmen, senators, etc. It's just part of our lives now.
And you didn't answer my poll, have you lost a brother/ relative in a plane crash? If your answer is yes, then you'd know what i'm talking about when i say it's now part of our lives.
Also, this isn't hard on me, in fact it's making me feel better...it's theraputic...it's the second mu-2 from flightline, inc. in 8 months crashing that is hard on me and my family.
So please leave our lives out of your or anyone else's comments. Some of you have PMed me or posted some very wise, helpful comments. And it's not because anything was said that parallels what my family or i say, it's because it was said from a non-judging, non-solution finding, non-speculating, mature, well-written post. i do admit to being pretty in-your-face in some posts...but it's hard not to join in on a bar fight.

 

[Tadpoles]

91 is not the same as 121, though operations under 121 are still beholden to most of Part 91, as you should well know, if indeed you fly Part 121. What is the point of that question, other than to assert our experience on the one hand, and then withdraw it by asking such a ridiculous question?

do you know what sarcasm is? (sorry, couldn't hold that one in)

 

[apttmab]

Can you state the problems with the MU2 you are trying to find a solution to?

Thanks

 

[Tadpoles]

Um, yeah, try the solution to why they seem to be crashing--specifically in the flightline, inc. company. we're trying to find a solution of regulations for them being either safer, or non-exsistant, whichever happens to happen.

 

[Swass]

do you know what sarcasm is? (sorry, couldn't hold that one in)

No, he doesn't.

In fact, he is generally a dry, holier than thou prick who thinks he is the final word in aviation knowledge and opinion. If you don't agree with Sir Avgod then you are:

A) Too stupid for him to waste time on
B) Too inexperienced to understand his explanations
C) A Brightspark

 

[apttmab]

we're trying to find a solution of regulations for them being either safer, or non-exsistant

Are you trying to make the company or the aircraft go away. If you truly want to do something Ok, then push for an FAA approved training program like a type rating or a mx program spec to the mu2. Do something positive. The solution you are trying to find has nothing to do with the mu2. Its more about finding a solution for the pain you feel. And you are going about it all wrong. What I said before "you need to get a life" should have been more like you need to get on with your life.

I have over one thousand hours in the mu2 and one engine fire that had to be shutdown right after takeoff. I have found no problems with the way the aircraft flys. The only problem I can find is in the way it is flown.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Anyone wanna start laying down bets that this thread might surpass the Legacy Bashfest in total posts and venom spewed?

 

[Flechas]

Anyone wanna start laying down bets that this thread might surpass the Legacy Bashfest in venom spewed?

It already did!