Another Merger, Another Bankruptcy whens it gonna end!

[SWA Bubba]

Although southwest wouldn't be around today had government involvement been removed.

Uh... You're gonna' have to expound on that a little.

How exactly did "government involvement" allow SWA to exist? It seems like "government involvement has, for the most part, worked against SWA. Certainly more than other airlines, especially legacies. It was deregulation (removal of government involvement) that helped us flourish. And, of course, there's that well-known bit of RE-regulation, i.e. "government involvement," that was actually an barely-disguised attempt to kill us. Uh... that would be the Wright Amendment, snuck into unrelated legislation by Speaker Jim Wright (D-Ft Worth), who essentially acted as an American Airlines proxy. We survived despite this attempt.

Bubba

 

[SIG600]

Uh... You're gonna' have to expound on that a little.

How exactly did "government involvement" allow SWA to exist? It seems like "government involvement has, for the most part, worked against SWA. Certainly more than other airlines, especially legacies. It was deregulation (removal of government involvement) that helped us flourish. And, of course, there's that well-known bit of RE-regulation, i.e. "government involvement," that was actually an barely-disguised attempt to kill us. Uh... that would be the Wright Amendment, snuck into unrelated legislation by Speaker Jim Wright (D-Ft Worth), who essentially acted as an American Airlines proxy. We survived despite this attempt.

Bubba

Yet another in the loooooong list of reasons people need to be screaming for the repeal of the 17th amendment.

 

[Flopgut]

Uh... You're gonna' have to expound on that a little.

How exactly did "government involvement" allow SWA to exist? It seems like "government involvement has, for the most part, worked against SWA. Certainly more than other airlines, especially legacies. It was deregulation (removal of government involvement) that helped us flourish. And, of course, there's that well-known bit of RE-regulation, i.e. "government involvement," that was actually an barely-disguised attempt to kill us. Uh... that would be the Wright Amendment, snuck into unrelated legislation by Speaker Jim Wright (D-Ft Worth), who essentially acted as an American Airlines proxy. We survived despite this attempt.

Bubba

YGTBSM....

Braniff matched your fares and would have put you out of business. You had them thrown off "your" airport. The WA was written to save you. No airline's BK has ever been as one sided as the deal SWA got with the WA.

 

[jonjuan]

YGTBSM....

Braniff matched your fares and would have put you out of business. You had them thrown off "your" airport. The WA was written to save you. No airline's BK has ever been as one sided as the deal SWA got with the WA.

And bingo was his name-o

 

[HalinTexas]

Boy you guys need to read up on your history.

 

[funnyman12]

I think you guys forget that we are pilots. You guys argue about crap that is way over all our heads. I think it is amusing. Being a pilot is a job, not my life. Though im amused at all the CEO's that post on here. So please continue so i can chuckle at all the FI experts.

 

[Lear70]

I think you guys forget that we are pilots. You guys argue about crap that is way over all our heads. I think it is amusing. Being a pilot is a job, not my life. Though im amused at all the CEO's that post on here. So please continue so i can chuckle at all the FI experts.

Ayuh...

I'm intelligent enough to be able to SEE what is wrong while, at the same time, recognizing that there's little that I can personally do to actually change anything.

Thinking otherwise is just going to get you a concussion from beating your head against the wall repeatedly. :deadhorse:

ymmv

 

[The Prussian]

Braniff matched your fares and would have put you out of business. You had them thrown off "your" airport. The WA was written to save you. No airline's BK has ever been as one sided as the deal SWA got with the WA.

Hmmm,...let's examine these four sentences with the truth detector...

...STATEMENT by FLOPGUT.............TRUTH DETECTOR

Braniff matched your fares and.......................................

You had them thrown off................................................

The WA was written to save you.....................................

No airline's BK has ever.................................................



Truth detector's overall assessment of FLOPGUT'S post.....uke:


Oh, well.....

 

[SWA Bubba]

YGTBSM....

Braniff matched your fares and would have put you out of business. You had them thrown off "your" airport. The WA was written to save you. No airline's BK has ever been as one sided as the deal SWA got with the WA.

Holy crap! What have YOU been smoking? How do you say (while keeping a straight face) that the Wright Amendment "was written to save [us]"? Is that straight out of the AA Political Lobbying playbook? Do you even know what the Wright Amendment is?

A little history: After all the meritless legal attacks were settled (with prejudice, I might add) in SWA's favor, and the other airlines couldn't stop us from flying out of Texas (when deregulation happened), THEN, and only then, did Jim Wright (D-Ft Worth) sneak in his amendment designed to cripple us. It was designed solely to keep us from competing with airlines at DFW in general, and AA in particular (you know, Wright's FW "hometown" airline). We didn't ask for it, we didn't want it, and we sure as heck didn't like it. It's been a thorn in our side, and hurt our Dallas operation for over 30 years. Only two and a half more years, however, and we can do what we want at Love Field.

Also, what are you talking about with "our BK"? Southwest has never been in bankruptcy. We've made an annual profit every year since 1973.

As near as I can tell, only one thing you said was actually true: Braniff matched our fares at one point. Check. We fought back with the "liquor with a full price ticket" battle plan. No one got "thrown off our airport." Ever. Lots of folks (American and Continental included) have operated out of Love Field over the years, and still do.

Would you care to explain WHY you think the WA could possibly have helped us? Or why AA and DFW's Congressional Representative (Wright) would have written a law to help the "enemy"? Or for that matter, where you're getting your so-called "facts"?

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

I think bubba handled the wright amendment in his standard superb fashion, so onto more interesting things:

Yet another in the loooooong list of reasons people need to be screaming for the repeal of the 17th amendment.

How would repeal of the 17th amendment affect anything about Jim wright, a congressman?
But moving past that, IMO, in all things political in our republic, the enemy is corruption- which is a moving target at best. But not a target we should ever stop seeking to destroy.
I do believe the latest round of propaganda espousing the repeal of the 17th is to further consolidate power in the united states to a few. There is an element here that truly believes in their birthright, and would like to see themselves returned to their rightful position as kings and lords. Even if called another, more palatable and veiled name.
This consolidation of power, whether it is citizens united, or the financial services modernization act, or the dilution of power of the people through repeal of the 17th is in direct conflict with the preamble of the constitution and as Lincoln spoke so eloquently about it at Gettysburg :
"that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

"Our democracy depends upon an informed constituency"- T. Jefferson

You sig, seem to have a propagandized education, and if capable of success as a commercial pilot, can do better than these regurgitations.

 

[dicko]

A free market is regulated by design... it's not anarchy. How do you think this country exploded onto the global scene so fast? Unfortunately when you let gov't intervene or set standards you get bubbles like what happened in 2007-8. The stage was set for that one as far back as the 80's with legislation that was passed.

We've been here before;

1907- 'The Great Panic' in the market. Regulation of Derivatives trading is discussed and attempted.

1929- 'Great Depression'.

1934- SEC Act and the regulation of derivatives trading.

2000- Both houses remove the regulation.

2008- Guess what ?


Over simplified but true.

 

[ASADFW7]

This thread is being considered thick skinned debate now, and less factual.

 

[Flopgut]

Also, what are you talking about with "our BK"? Southwest has never been in bankruptcy. We've made an annual profit every year since 1973.

I didn't say you ever went BK.

We've had all this out years ago.

Bottom line: If Love Field had remained either closed or open, equally, to all airlines, SWA would not be in business and the WA would not have been written.

 

[Lear70]

This thread is being considered thick skinned debate now, and less factual.

And this is different than what happens on every OTHER FlightInfo topic HOW??

Every generation of mods tries to reinvent the wheel, when FI is, has been, and always will be a mud-slinging arena.

But it's amusing to watch...

 

[Secret Squirrel]

You guys make it sound like this is an epidemic of only the airline industry. Show me an established industry that does not see increased competition and downward pressure on labor. The problem with our industry is that we can not come out with an IPAD type wunderproduct that will give us an edge over the competition that lets us increase our margins.

 

[HalinTexas]

This thread is being considered thick skinned debate now, and less factual.

When have facts ever gotten in the way of wrong-headed opinion on FI?

It would be nice if those involved did get their facts correct before submitting their opinion.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I didn't say you ever went BK.

We've had all this out years ago.

Bottom line: If Love Field had remained either closed or open, equally, to all airlines, SWA would not be in business and the WA would not have been written.

Actual bottom line: Love field IS and has been open, equally, to all airlines. American and Continental still have two gates each at Love. They are free to use them at any time, and I believe CO still does. I think (not really sure) that the last time American used their gates at Love was when they used them to kill Legend Airlines. They could use them today if they wanted. I assume they do not because then they couldn't easily use their hub-and-spoke model at two airports in the same city (transfers, etc.) There would be even more gates available (for any other airline) if not for the artificial limit imposed at the compromise agreement that was signed in 2006 to fully repeal the WA in 2014.

You still haven't said how the WA has done anything to help SWA. All it did was help American by keeping us from competing with them on interstate flights as we had intended.

Bubba

P.S. By the way, this quote of yours below does sound a LOT like you said Southwest had gone BK:

No airline's BK has ever been as one sided as the deal SWA got with the WA

 

[SIG600]

I think bubba handled the wright amendment in his standard superb fashion, so onto more interesting things:



How would repeal of the 17th amendment affect anything about Jim wright, a congressman?
But moving past that, IMO, in all things political in our republic, the enemy is corruption- which is a moving target at best. But not a target we should ever stop seeking to destroy.
I do believe the latest round of propaganda espousing the repeal of the 17th is to further consolidate power in the united states to a few. There is an element here that truly believes in their birthright, and would like to see themselves returned to their rightful position as kings and lords. Even if called another, more palatable and veiled name.
This consolidation of power, whether it is citizens united, or the financial services modernization act, or the dilution of power of the people through repeal of the 17th is in direct conflict with the preamble of the constitution and as Lincoln spoke so eloquently about it at Gettysburg :
"that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

"Our democracy depends upon an informed constituency"- T. Jefferson

You sig, seem to have a propagandized education, and if capable of success as a commercial pilot, can do better than these regurgitations.

The 17th Amendment revoked each states right to appoint their senators, thus putting them to a popular vote. When you did that, the states lost their right to name representation and the entire senate was put up for sale. Every elected rep, save for a few, are now in the pockets of the corporations that backed their campaigns. They may say they work for their constituents.... very few have the performance to actually back it. It's not a consolodation of power, quite the opposite. It's limiting the power of big gov't, the influence of the "kings and lords."

BTW, the 17th Amendment was ratified in 1913, quite a while after Lincoln gave the Gettysburg address and it damn near upends the preamble of the constitution taking away states rights, once piece at a time. History my friend, learn it. I'm wholly against the corruption and perversion of our gov't. Quite the opposite I'm a big fan of undoing all these little facilities that allow large corporations and the rich to influence it and purchase their little cutouts.


I don't know enough about Wrights campaign and who some of his financial backers were, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that AA and maybe others were donating dollars. That, wave, is one example of why the 17th should be repealed and the power returned to the individual states to appoint their representation.

 

[HalinTexas]

Look up Jim Wright, please. His district was in Ft. Worth. AMR didn't move to Ft. Worth until 1979. Braniff was already here, on the west side of the airport.

Look up the Wright Amendment, too. There were 3 commercial airline airports in the area. Ft. Worth had two, and had to shut them down to commercial airlines when Dallas and Ft. Worth agreed to build DFW back in the '60s. FTW was pissed that KDAL was still open. They lost the initial battle with the CAB (look that up, too, please) and the city of Dallas over SWA. After the industry was deregulated, SWA was not bound by the intra-Texas operational restrictions. So they went to KMSY. This again violated the agreement with Dallas. They sued again, but it appeared they were going to lose, so they got Jim Wright to help. AMR had little to nothing to do with these early flights. Braniff was probably more pissed off, since their largest hub was at DFW and they were also heavily invested in it.

So, in summary, the Wright Amendment restricted SWA from growing at KDAL. It did not help it. If anything, it helped Braniff, AMR an DAL, but we all know how THAT turned out? Or do we? Read Hard Landing - Petzinger. That's a whole other enchilade. It also helped out the city of Dallas in terms of revenue.

 

[The Prussian]

Look up Jim Wright, please. His district was in Ft. Worth. AMR didn't move to Ft. Worth until 1979. Braniff was already here, on the west side of the airport.

Look up the Wright Amendment, too. There were 3 commercial airline airports in the area. Ft. Worth had two, and had to shut them down to commercial airlines when Dallas and Ft. Worth agreed to build DFW back in the '60s. FTW was pissed that KDAL was still open. They lost the initial battle with the CAB (look that up, too, please) and the city of Dallas over SWA. After the industry was deregulated, SWA was not bound by the intra-Texas operational restrictions. So they went to KMSY. This again violated the agreement with Dallas. They sued again, but it appeared they were going to lose, so they got Jim Wright to help. AMR had little to nothing to do with these early flights. Braniff was probably more pissed off, since their largest hub was at DFW and they were also heavily invested in it.

So, in summary, the Wright Amendment restricted SWA from growing at KDAL. It did not help it. If anything, it helped Braniff, AMR an DAL, but we all know how THAT turned out? Or do we? Read Hard Landing - Petzinger. That's a whole other enchilade. It also helped out the city of Dallas in terms of revenue.

Thanks, Hal, for that history review. Your last sentence is also a glimpse into what this was really all about. Remember that Jim Wright represented Fort Worth and Tarrant County. It has always been in Fort Worth's best interest to have DFW...and its revenue...to straddle the border between Dallas and Tarrant counties. Southwest's insistence in staying at Love Field, really threatened to pull some of that revenue back into Dallas county. As Southwest won its right to remain at Love Field, Jim Wright did what he could to minimize that threat.

It was quite the scene back then...major airlines vs. an upstart...Fort Worth/Tarrant County vs. Dallas...egos, revenue, politics...

That battle, fittingly, could only have played out in a state the size of Texas.