Another AirNow EMB-110 Crash

[satpak77]

always back up GPS data with analog if you can

 

[T-REX]

An AirNow caravan driver told me that they think he accidentally punched the airport into the GPS instead of the VOR. That explains why he crashed 6 miles past the airport. The VOR is six miles before the airport. This is just a rumor and I'm not trying to blame the poor guy. Lets all wait and see what the NTSB has to say. My condolences to all who knew him. You freight dawgs be careful out there.

The exact same scenario happened up in Presque Isle, Maine back in 1998. A piston twin did the approach with the ILS down, using a Loran. Dialed in the airport, not the vor that was 3 miles down the road. Did all the step down fixes exactly 3 miles too early. Hit hill. Very messy deal.
Remember guys,,, garbage in, garbage out.
Be careful!!

Hung

Complete speculation of course- but I'm not sure about all that.

First of all, at least when I worked at AirNow none of the GPS were approach certified. Sure people still used them but here the VOR app. takes you 200 ft lower than the RNAV anyway. Doesn't make much since to fly the GPS. Next, the VOR used on the approach does not have the same identifier as the airport VOR=CAM and Bennington=DDH. Hard to say whether he was tracking to the wrong fix.

The mountain that the plane hit is only a mile and a half from the airport. The mountain top is 2400 ft and the MDA is 1880. At 120 kts if he was tracking to the airport that would only give him 30-45 seconds to make his turn. If he was following the VOR-DME he would have about 3 miles from the MAP to the mountain, still not much room for a 180 degree turn.

Again sorry for another AirNow loss and I hate speculating. But I doubt without having a FDR and only having partial radar coverage the NTSB will not have anything but speculation either. Be safe.

 

[LostLuggage]

Just applied

Well, I just filled the climbto350.com and AirNow online apps. Here's hoping this doesn't turn out to be a case of "famous last words" on account of bad equipment. I don't know a thing about what happend to that poor chap, I just hope that nothing extraneous to the confines of his noggin had anything to do with his sad demise. My condolenses to his family, friends and the profession.

 

[Bringupthebird]

An AirNow caravan driver told me that they think he accidentally punched the airport into the GPS instead of the VOR. That explains why he crashed 6 miles past the airport. The VOR is six miles before the airport. This is just a rumor and I'm not trying to blame the poor guy. Lets all wait and see what the NTSB has to say. My condolences to all who knew him. You freight dawgs be careful out there.

The exact same scenario happened up in Presque Isle, Maine back in 1998. A piston twin did the approach with the ILS down, using a Loran. Dialed in the airport, not the vor that was 3 miles down the road. Did all the step down fixes exactly 3 miles too early. Hit hill. Very messy deal.
Remember guys,,, garbage in, garbage out.
Be careful!!

Hung

I thought that was the reason they re-named all the VOR's that weren't co-located with the airport. There should be better technology by now to eliminate the dive and drive.

In all my dealings with Air Now (when they were Business Air) they seemed very professional. Their recent rash of accidents seems inconsistent with what I remember about them.

 

[Hung Start]

When I wrote about mis-reading the info that was plugged into the GPS, it was speculation at best. I am not trying to imply this was the case, BUT it has been known to happen. That's why I referenced the PQI accident.
The thing we all have to understand, is we all have input into what happens to us. Well, almost always. Sometimes you can do the absolute best you can and things conspire to work against you. Bad karma?

But look at the accidents that AirNow has had that I can remember with the Bandit. I may not have all of them, but this is what I pulled off the NTSB reports.
1) Plane ran out of fuel enroute. Forgot to check tanks
2) Lost engine on T/O, almost made it back to airport (bad karma?)
3) Seemingly had one engine shut down (reason not given) on short final with airport in sight used full flaps. Didn't make the runway.
4) This one, missed approach, who knows what happend.

Pratts are good, but they have been known to fail. I have been lucky that in all these hours I have never had one go T/U on me, so can I comment on how I would handle it for real? No way. Sure we practice, but until that moment really, really happens to you, we are all hotshot pilots.
All we can do at this point is admit that sometimes, even the best of us (thats all of us, right) makes mistakes and a tragedy happens. Let us learn from it and not forget!

Hung

 

[honeycomb]

Well Said Hung.

 

[belchfire]

The missed app proceedure doesn't look that bad, but with marginal or no radar coverage and having to hand fly the published miss rather than getting vectors that are often given in the radar environment can be a tough mental change of gears to make - on top of having to clean up the bird and run the radios by yourself and start thinking about what you are going to do next. A missed approach at night in IFR conditions is one of the highest workload environments a pilot will ever be in and is something that doesn't happen that often.

My thoughts and prayers for the friends and family...

Be careful out there guys and gals!

 

[Diesel]

Hung wasn't the GS and LOC out in PQI when he hit the hill?

We did that run for a couple of nights after the accident and the boss said "no way." after he did it with me. He didn't like to be away from his bed at night and didn't expect his boys to be either.

They make em tougher in LEW

 

[Hung Start]

D:

Yes, both were out. Poor kid used his loran, even though the wx was at ils mins.
We got the contract right after that, that's why I am so familiar with the accident.
Took his girlfriend for her first flight that night, never told anybody at his company. Canned flight plan, so only 1 listed onboard. Everybody was confused when they had two chared beyond recognition bodies, they couldn't even tell the sexes. And the girls parents couldn't find her, about 3 days later they found her car at the airport and realized what might have happened. Dental records were the only way too tell. Very, very sad all around.
You going to stop in this winter? Nice Irish pub across the street from me now. The Eyetalian keeps telling me he will be here, be he gets lost out of Gorham!

Hung

 

[satpak77]

Yes, both were out. Poor kid used his loran, even though the wx was at ils mins.

jeez...

 

[honeycomb]

D:

Yes, both were out. Poor kid used his loran, even though the wx was at ils mins.

Hung

You cannot teach good judgement. As much as we would like to believe we can.

 

[Hung Start]

Classic example of get-home-itis. But (and this is absolutely no defense) I knew the company he worked for very well. Cheap beyond belief. If he got stuck in Bangor they would NEVER pay for a room, just either sleep in the lobby chair or in the plane. And even if he got home mid-day, they would expect him to show at 5pm anyway.

But, also, do remember, most freight guys are running all night, and even if you did get a good day's rest, your clock is still upside down. And in those times you need to make a snap judgement call, you need it right here, right now. Some make the right one, some don't.
Not easy, in the best of circumstances. So, I'm not always fast to blame training, the best can only cover so much.
Once again, just be as safe as you can!!

Hung

 

[mav1morrison]

For all those out there still llistening in Hung Start has it right. He started down over the field not the VOR and at 6 miles pushed the power up and hit the ridge east of DDH not Mt Anthony. They are still a class operation just can't put a finger on what's going on.

 

[b19]

Please be safe and follow the rules

I going to put my two cents in, actually I am begging you to be safe.

I fly a widebody for a decent cargo company but this is the same advice I have always given to someone that was about to upgrade. It takes a lot more courage to call dispatch and say " I would love to do the flight, but I don't think our op specs, FAR's the mel or whatever the case may be allows it and I don't feel safe." This is usually followed by some veiled threat, intimidation or something to make you question your judgment. It takes a whole lot more courage to be a courteous profesional and stand your ground than get pushed into something you dont feel comfortable with. But once you learn how to respectfully stand up, you will have a whole lot more respect from your fellow pilots and yourself.

Please be safe, follow the rules, and be proud that you don't take chances.

This is not meant as a criticism, just an acknowledgment of how hard it is to always do the right thing.

Fly safe, Good health and good luck.

 

[Steve]

I going to put my two cents in, actually I am begging you to be safe.

I fly a widebody for a decent cargo company but this is the same advice I have always given to someone that was about to upgrade. It takes a lot more courage to call dispatch and say " I would love to do the flight, but I don't think our op specs, FAR's the mel or whatever the case may be allows it and I don't feel safe." This is usually followed by some veiled threat, intimidation or something to make you question your judgment. It takes a whole lot more courage to be a courteous profesional and stand your ground than get pushed into something you dont feel comfortable with. But once you learn how to respectfully stand up, you will have a whole lot more respect from your fellow pilots and yourself.

Please be safe, follow the rules, and be proud that you don't take chances.

This is not meant as a criticism, just an acknowledgment of how hard it is to always do the right thing.

Fly safe, Good health and good luck.

Good post. Thank you